Looking for info about a blade mark/stamp.

[Maurice]

Hello friendcollectors,

I recently acquired an Aceh peudeueng with a stamp/mark on the blade.
There is another peudeueng in the Leiden museum with "almost" the same mark, which is written about in the Fischer catalogue.
There are only two different characters (the "Y and T" and the "R and the S"), but maybe they mixed up those two characters because it wasn't visible clearly?
(look at the questionmark after the mentioning of the stamp in the Fischer catalogue).

I hope anyone can help me with this.
I posted also the text of the Fischercatalogue.

Thank you in advance,
Maurice

[Rick]

When I read it I see what I would translate from the abbreviations into 'warranted' Wd 'cast .' .. the rest is a mystery .

So I'm thinking 'warranted cast steel' for part of its meaning .

[Jim McDougall]

I think Rick is pretty much spot on here, as these kinds of markings with this quality stamp referring to the steel are well established in many instances in many countries' blades. I recall spending some time finding someone to translate some characters in Manchu on a Chinese dao (not an easy task in itself and hoping for some mystical or key invocation, it simply read to the effect of 'tempered steel'. It is now fairly generally held that the 'Andrea Ferara' name on mostly Scottish blades was likely a term signifying good quality iron (steel) and appealed to the Scots.
This seems to be a fairly widely known style cavalry blade which developed concurrently with the British light cavalry sabre of 1796 and the German 'Blucher sabel' M1811 and had actually already been in use in Eastern Europe prior, with the favored 'hatchet' type point. Many of the British blades had been emphatically placing warranted phrases on thier blades in the late 18th into 19th c. and perhaps the practice might have been carried elsewhere.

Naturally this may be other than the warranted steel indicator, but is placed on the blade where that seems more likely than a maker or supplier, who usually marked on the forte of the blade or the spine near forte.

Best regards,
Jim

* of course I've seen something similar someplace, and I will probably not sleep til I find it !

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Rick

When I read it I see what I would translate from the abbreviations into 'warranted' Wd 'cast .' .. the rest is a mystery .

So I'm thinking 'warranted cast steel' for part of its meaning .

Sure thing, Rick

Look here:

and here:

[Maurice]

Thank you all so much for replying. Indeed it seems that this stamp is used in more blades.
Especially the Aceh sword from Willem was most interesting, because it seems that this stamp was used more around this region. We now have Willem's sword, the one from the Leiden museum and mine with the same stamp and from the same region...

Fernando thank you very much for your links. I see it was discussed before, but I couldn't find it myself, so I think Jim can stop searching where he has seen it before and have a good well earned nightrest...

Thanks again,
Maurice

[asomotif]

Hello Maurice,

Nice peudeung, with markings that match my example.
Can you send this one to me to complete my wall display

Best regards,
Willem

[Rick]

Originally Posted by fernando

Sure thing, Rick

Look here:

and here:

I've been hanging around here too long ....

[Jonno]

Very interesting!!

[Jim McDougall]

This is indeed MOST interesting !!! and thank you Fernando for the links to these earlier discussions, which I had completely forgotten. With those I can remember where I had seen these stamped markings.

I have been reviewing this and searching for more than a few hours since yesterday, and have not found anything among makers marks, trademarks etc. which corresponds closely enough to accurately assess these unusual markings. What seems clear of course, is that the same configuration of letters occurs situated in the same blade location on atypically mounted swords. This suggests the blades were in secondary markets or remounted locally using trade blades.

What I mean by secondary markets refers to the discussion earlier with Mark Eley's briquet last year, where I had mentioned the arms dealer mogul, Francus Bannerman of New York, and his phenomenal arms business. After the Civil War he acquired tens of thousands of US cavalry sabres, and I believe actually resupplied them to the army during the Spanish American war. He purchased huge volumes of surplus weapons and piles of captured 'bring backs' from this war and many occupations and campaigns.

It is believed he actually fueled a great deal of the arms collecting fervor in this country, and when he saw the demand for antique arms grow, he did begin fabricating interesting examples for the market. He actually cast hilts and placed stamps on blades, and I have seen many swords of latter 19th c. stamped with his name, with one dealer actually claiming Bannerman was a maker in Germany!

The reason I was compelled to think of Bannerman in those earlier discussions on Mark's briquet was that the color of the highly polished cast hilt seemed more red than most of these I have seen, and seemed incongruent with the older blade. Also the blade was hollow ground fullered, inconsistant as well with briquets, even with the many variations internationally seen. With these unusual cold stamped markings, placed longitudinally in the middle of the blade, it seems plausible that this might be a Bannerman product. While he stamped his name on many of his products, perhaps those of his family who also participated might have used this as some type of inventory code?

These letter markings seem commercially oriented, and with the block letters and serifs, and with underlined superscript lower case letters seem very antiquarian and suggest 19th century style, certainly England or the Continent. It was common even earlier to use this style in abbreviating names such as William, Joseph, with lower case second letter above the line of the first. Also, in the numero sign, the letter N in large block letter is followed by a small O underlined and above in the same manner.
The underline also often used in abbreviating Mc for Mac in Scottish names

Another subtle feature which causes me to think of Bannerman is the last group of letters, the two raised letters underlined seem to be TL rather than the TI originally thought. This may be an abbreviation for 'castle'. One of the most notable eccentricities of the Bannerman dynasty is that he actually constructed a Scottish style castle on a small island in the middle of the Hudson River in New York. Here he housed a huge arsenal and probably carried out much of his creative arms furbishing. Perhaps these stamped markings might allude there?

With that speculation raised, these markings may well be abbreviations as originally, and rather more plausibly suggested, a warranted type epigram which was commercially placed on trade blades in Europe. I have not seen this particular format or placement on British swords, but with the advent of industrial commercialism in the 19th century, it is not to say that similar stampings used on sundry metalwork might not have been employed for blades in the trade market.

These are my ideas, and I hope others might join in to see if we can solve this mystery once and for all! It is a weapons forensics and detection challenge, so please join in!!

All the best,
Jim

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This is indeed MOST interesting !!! and thank you Fernando for the links to these earlier discussions, which I had completely forgotten. With those I can remember where I had seen these stamped markings.

I have been reviewing this and searching for more than a few hours since yesterday, and have not found anything among makers marks, trademarks etc. which corresponds closely enough to accurately assess these unusual markings. What seems clear of course, is that the same configuration of letters occurs situated in the same blade location on atypically mounted swords. This suggests the blades were in secondary markets or remounted locally using trade blades.

What I mean by secondary markets refers to the discussion earlier with Mark Eley's briquet last year, where I had mentioned the arms dealer mogul, Francus Bannerman of New York, and his phenomenal arms business. After the Civil War he acquired tens of thousands of US cavalry sabres, and I believe actually resupplied them to the army during the Spanish American war. He purchased huge volumes of surplus weapons and piles of captured 'bring backs' from this war and many occupations and campaigns.

It is believed he actually fueled a great deal of the arms collecting fervor in this country, and when he saw the demand for antique arms grow, he did begin fabricating interesting examples for the market. He actually cast hilts and placed stamps on blades, and I have seen many swords of latter 19th c. stamped with his name, with one dealer actually claiming Bannerman was a maker in Germany!

The reason I was compelled to think of Bannerman in those earlier discussions on Mark's briquet was that the color of the highly polished cast hilt seemed more red than most of these I have seen, and seemed incongruent with the older blade. Also the blade was hollow ground fullered, inconsistant as well with briquets, even with the many variations internationally seen. With these unusual cold stamped markings, placed longitudinally in the middle of the blade, it seems plausible that this might be a Bannerman product. While he stamped his name on many of his products, perhaps those of his family who also participated might have used this as some type of inventory code?

These letter markings seem commercially oriented, and with the block letters and serifs, and with underlined superscript lower case letters seem very antiquarian and suggest 19th century style, certainly England or the Continent. It was common even earlier to use this style in abbreviating names such as William, Joseph, with lower case second letter above the line of the first. Also, in the numero sign, the letter N in large block letter is followed by a small O underlined and above in the same manner.
The underline also often used in abbreviating Mc for Mac in Scottish names

Another subtle feature which causes me to think of Bannerman is the last group of letters, the two raised letters underlined seem to be TL rather than the TI originally thought. This may be an abbreviation for 'castle'. One of the most notable eccentricities of the Bannerman dynasty is that he actually constructed a Scottish style castle on a small island in the middle of the Hudson River in New York. Here he housed a huge arsenal and probably carried out much of his creative arms furbishing. Perhaps these stamped markings might allude there?

With that speculation raised, these markings may well be abbreviations as originally, and rather more plausibly suggested, a warranted type epigram which was commercially placed on trade blades in Europe. I have not seen this particular format or placement on British swords, but with the advent of industrial commercialism in the 19th century, it is not to say that similar stampings used on sundry metalwork might not have been employed for blades in the trade market.

These are my ideas, and I hope others might join in to see if we can solve this mystery once and for all! It is a weapons forensics and detection challenge, so please join in!!

All the best,
Jim

Dear Jim,

Thank you for spending your hours of free time, trying to hunt down the origine of the stamp.
If you can't find it, I think it will be almost impossible to it out somewhere...

But I'm keeping hope maybe somebody accidently stumbles on some information about this mark, as the hope will be very little now. ;-)

Again thank you all for participating to help, especially to Jim for his big efforts, which is really appreciated.

Kind Regards,
Maurice

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Dear Jim,

Thank you for spending your hours of free time, trying to hunt down the origine of the stamp.
If you can't find it, I think it will be almost impossible to it out somewhere...

But I'm keeping hope maybe somebody accidently stumbles on some information about this mark, as the hope will be very little now. ;-)

Again thank you all for participating to help, especially to Jim for his big efforts, which is really appreciated.

Kind Regards,
Maurice

You are very, very welcome Maurice, and thank you for your kind note. I am disappointed I could not find anything more specific, but I really never close a case There are some weapons and topics I have searched for years into decades, and many still remain so. Sometimes here a thread from years ago will be revived (I should say excavated) by tenacious souls who also keep searching. I am confident one of us will find some plausible answer, and I am grateful that you posted this.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

Another marked blade drawn from the depths.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=borneo+piso

Gav

[morel5000]

Hi All,

I am new here and I got attracted to this forum due to this post. I recently purchased a M1796 pattern light cavalry sabre with similar markings. I got it in my possession, however haven't been able to make my own pictures yet so I'll use the ones from the seller.

Then I saw another "Ethnographic" arm for sale at a local internet site. Here the markings are almost the same, however they are fully written, so not abbreviated.

The stamp reads "Warranted Ward Cast Steel". I think the font is even the same.

On of the possible "Ward"s is located in Sheffield. More info can be found here:

http://www.shef.ac.uk/hawley/project...and-payne.html

check out the marks in the 1880's here:

http://www.shef.ac.uk/hawley/project...rademarks.html

Anyone has another possible manufacturer Ward?

Still a few questions remain; is my M1796 an export blade? Where did it go? Germany? The East? America? It looks used (sword cuts in the blade) and it is sharp. Could this be a private weapon used on the continent (as it resembles the German M1811)?

Best regards,
Michel

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Michel,
Thank you for joining us here and posting this....welcome!!!
We have of course already discussed this stamped name with warranted and cast steel, which of course evolved into quite regular commercial use in various forms on tools, axes and edged weapons from about mid 19th c. it seems, perhaps even earlier.
The term cast steel had become seen on razors post 1772, and later on axes and knives exported to America. It is of course well known that the largest suppliers of Bowie knives in America were Sheffield sources.

The M1796 British light cavalry sabre was one of the largest in production it would seem and some of these were exported over a period of time, especially after they were superceded by the M1821 light cavalry sabres. However, they remained in favor, especially in colonial regions throughout the British Empire for the remainder of the century in many cases. Large numbers of these seem to have become surplus and entered many trade networks.
I admit I have not seen this kind of stamp on one of these before, but it seems to fall in place with the numbers of tools, axes, knives etc. which were exported to America in the 19th century carrying similar Sheffield oriented stamps. Despite there not being a great demand for swords in America, it is known that some were sent here probably among other materials if such case did exist.
This is of course a suggested possibility but with that information added to augment plausibility. The British M1796 did influence the Prussian M1811 Bluchersabel but only small numbers of these reached the Germans as far as I know. The numbers exported to other countries around 1814 of these were relatively small, actually only about 36 to America for example and in hundreds in most cases.

As I had discussed earlier in this thread, I had suspected this stamp might have been used in variation by the Bannerman 'surplus' complex in the early 20th century, where numbers of replicas were produced of certain type weapons, but I dont think these would have been among them. The stamping in mid center blade seems however strikingly similar, and perhaps may have served as a prototype for the Bannerman practice.


All best regards,
Jim

[Rich]

FWIW, Fiskars of Finland marked their puukko blades "Best Cast Steel" in the 1890's.

Rich S

[Jim McDougall]

Michel, your query has continued to intrigue me, and I recall these discussions from last summer which it seems left more questions than real answers on these curious stamped words on blades.

I think the conundrum with your sabre is centered primarily on why a British M1796 light cavalry sabre would carry an abbreviated stamp for warranted cast steel in an unusual place on the blade more characteristic of a much later period. This pattern sword was produced in considerable quantity and was of course one of the first officially recognized British regulation pattern swords from 1796 until its replacement in 1821 with a new pattern.

These were produced by various makers whose blades were typically stamped on the blade spine near the hilt. The 'ears' on the grips identify this as a troopers sword. In the earlier years of producing these swords, the term 'warranted' did occur on a number of sword blades, particularly those by Thomas Gill, due to disputes concerning quality of British blades vs. German.
The term 'cast steel' however seem more aligned with 'Industrial' period of the second half of the 19th century, and with tools, implements, and knives and axes often exported from England. These indeed were mostly Sheffield situated.

The sword itself seems to have a rather 'galvanized' appearance by the patches of discoloration in the metal, this process of metal 'protection' also more in line with these later industrial periods in England. The darkened staining resembles the residue from heavy petroleum jelly type material often used to preserve weapons in armouries and storage in the 20th century.

The question then is why would a sword apparantly from obsolete stores of these bolder British sabres receive these later type metal treatments (if I am correct in assuming from pictures) as well as having these latter use terms cold stamped into the blade. We know that the M1796 type sabres were much favored by Indian cavalry units in the latter 19th century. The M1796 blades were actually produced by Mole, Wilkinson and contracts I have seen to J.Bourne & Sons in around the 1880s forward. These were typically name stamped in much the same manner as the M1796 stamps on the original types.

Why then would industrial form stamping etc. occur on an obsolete but still favored type sword destined for India if we know that regular stamping of traditional practice was used on known examples of this category? Further, why the cast steel term associated with tools and not as far as I know on edged weapon blades?

As I have earlier mentioned, the only places I have seen this type of wording and stamping seem to return ostensibly to the 'surplus' industry of Bannerman and others from the post Civil War period into the 20th century. While Bannerman himself virtually created the trends toward 'weapons collecting' , the volume of arms and materials he had amassed was substantial enough to actually provide ersatz supply for actual military requirements. Perhaps this vintage British sabre somehow entered this realm of activity, we do know that numbers of British swords were brought into the U.S. for the Confederate Army during the Civil War, and this might well have been among these eclectic stockpiles. Huge volumes of swords both Union and Confederate were acquired by Bannerman after the war.

Those are my thoughts and I hope to hear other views.
Richard Dellar, are you there!!! ?

All best regards,
Jim

[morel5000]

Hi Jim,

thanks for your reply. I will try to photograph the steel of the blade in daylight to better capture the galvanized appearance.

It remains an interesting sabre. It is sharpened, and it looks to have some old marks from combat.

Best regards,
Michel