Use of Actual Vintage Arms as Props in Early Films

[Jim McDougall]

While we are aware that in the fledgling movie industry from the teens into 20s and 30s, the sword fighting with swashbuckling heroes was typically done with either period fencing weapons, or rebated blades on the swords used. However, it does seem that in the larger scope of scenes with numerous extras and background crowds, there appear to be a variety of actual antique arms worn or seen in view.

I recall some years ago, I knew of several instances where collectors went to movie studios clearing out decades old props and auctioning them off, and these guys got some incredible finds! (oh to have been there!!!

I also had read somewhere that the great matinee idol Rudolph Valentino, had actually collected swords himself. I knew of course, that like most of the leading men in swashbuckling films,he had been well coached in fencing, and some were quite accomplished, Basil Rathbone most noted as one of the best. He often grumbled at being the villain however and having to allow being beaten.

In finding some detail on the auction of Valentino's weapons after his death in 1926, while seen in panoply as displays in his mansion, "Falcons Lair" in Beverly Hills, some of these do seem authentic. While I am under the impression she were acquired from antiques dealers by a decorator, I am wondering if they might have been taken from studio stores.

I am curious if anyone out there has weapons with provenance to the props or sets from films or actors, and especially if anyone knows of any of the swords once displayed in the Valentino mansion (or others).

[Kmaddock]

Hi Jim

Not Hollywood or film but I got this out of a prop room in a theatre in Ireland

A Katana in what are known as handachi (half tachi) mount dating from 1580's, razor sharp and great condition.

I taught it was a good repro.

I lucked out on this one.

Keep well and thanks for all your great contributions, I still remember your very nice welcome to the forum many years ago.

Ken

[Jim McDougall]

Wow Ken! THAT is exactly what I'm talking about! and that is even beyond astonishing to have found such a treasure in this situation. Thank you so much for entering this here, and for the very kind words. Having you join us here was very much our good fortune.

With this unusual topic, I wanted to explore a bit more on exactly this kind of situation with weapons used theatrically and in other such situations. For example, I have discovered circumstances where actual vintage swords were used in Masonic lodges and among regalia.

Conversely, in investigation of certain items found archaeologically, it was discovered that for example, items thought to be antique have many times been actually theatrical props.

Thank you again, very much,
Very best regards
Jim

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Jim,
In a British comedy/farce movie from 1968, Carry on up the Khyber, plenty of real Indian tulwars etc plus one of the main Khyber rebels sports a nice yataghan. Plenty of this kind of stuff in prop departments in the U.K. for obvious reasons. In the Sherlock Holmes T.V. series from the 80's which stars Jeremy Brett there are plenty of real weapons on show both in Watson and Holmes apartments as well as in various scenes throughout the series. Of course one would expect Indian weaponry connected to Watson given his history.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
In a British comedy/farce movie from 1968, Carry on up the Khyber, plenty of real Indian tulwars etc plus one of the main Khyber rebels sports a nice yataghan. Plenty of this kind of stuff in prop departments in the U.K. for obvious reasons. In the Sherlock Holmes T.V. series from the 80's which stars Jeremy Brett there are plenty of real weapons on show both in Watson and Holmes apartments as well as in various scenes throughout the series. Of course one would expect Indian weaponry connected to Watson given his history.
My Regards,
Norman.

Wonderful analogies Norman!!! and I have honestly gotten eye strain from trying to spot the weapons hung on Holmes' walls in various versions from film and TV.
Absolutely very British colonial influences, and Watson in 2nd Afghan War would have certainly brought in such things, I always recall the picture of Gordon, the notable Persian slipper with Holmes' stash etc.
It seemed I have always watched with eagle eye the weapons in films, and do all to restrain from declaring something 'not right', lest my wife bop me with the proverbial frying pan

In "Gunga Din" (the 30s original, which I have probably watched reaching a Guiness record since I was a kid) at some point I got stuck on the strange axe the commander held, said 'thuggee'. I spent it seems years trying to research these and these obscure bandits. I always wondered it the one they had was real, as these are so rare, never actually have seen one, anywhere.

All very best,
Jim

[Rick]

Why does Bannerman come to mind when we are discussing movie props.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... In finding some detail on the auction of Valentino's weapons after his death in 1926, while seen in panoply as displays in his mansion, "Falcons Lair" in Beverly Hills, some of these do seem authentic. While I am under the impression she were acquired from antiques dealers by a decorator, I am wondering if they might have been taken from studio stores....

Your assumption is obviously correct, Jim. While it is possible (read probable) that some items in his collection were brought from studio prop stores, there is no doubt that the ones (all ?) listed in the auction catalogue were tagged as being authentic ... and from early periods. The Persian shield, sold for a good figure (circa $ 8.000), the not so old Knights of Pythias silver sword, a few rapiers from the 17th century, one signed by a famous Toledo master, you name it.
With a bit of patience one may browse the catalogue and confirm that the items at auction were the real thing.
Even his personal utilities had a collector's touch.

Best
Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Your assumption is obviously correct, Jim. While it is possible (read probable) that some items in his collection were brought from studio prop stores, there is no doubt that the ones (all ?) listed in the auction catalogue were tagged as being authentic ... and from early periods. The Persian shield, sold for a good figure (circa $ 8.000), the not so old Knights of Pythias silver sword, a few rapiers from the 17th century, one signed by a famous Toledo master, you name it.
With a bit of patience one may browse the catalogue and confirm that the items at auction were the real thing.
Even his personal utilities had a collector's touch.

Best
Fernando

Thank you so much Fernando for these notes and links. Actually I am still searching for more detail on movie props in the early studios, and there is a frightening dearth of attention to any weaponry that might have existed.
Most of the attention is to costumes and 'gadgetry' in sets.

I had always had the notion that Valentino had acquired these swords from movie props he either got from films he appeared in or had access to or association with. He was, of course, as many of the male leading actors, quite involved in fencing, which was part of general training. When I took fencing many years ago, the class was designated 'stage combat' which was of course very much aligned with the type of activity they would have learned.

However, in research I have found that Valentino had some issues with men challenging his masculinity, and that led to that extra masculine atmosphere he wished to be appointed in his mansion. It was the decorator(s) who acquired the antique arms and swords which were displayed, and in those days these were readily available and not particularly expensive. Even early rapiers could be obtained for remarkably low prices.

Those were the days!!!

[fernando]

I knew about some folks mocking his masculinity, those opposing his favoritism to contemporary Douglas Fairbanks. But i didn't know he took it so seriously as having his decorator to hang weaponry on the walls to prove otherwise, as if he needed to so prove. As a matter of fact, he had females 'dying' for him. But the point is that, frustrated or not, those weapons were authentic. I look forward to hearing from you about possible movie props around his mansion; apparently those that didn't reach auction/s.
Best
Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Fernando. It would seem that the idea the idea Valentino might have placed these weapons on display as props to augment masculinity was most definitely misplaced. In various sources, I found that after Valentino's death, his estate was auctioned Dec. 10,1926 at Hall of Art Studios, Hollywood and administered by his close friend and confidante S.George Ullman.
The catalogs of this sale are rare but several have been sold in recent years.
Several of the swords are included, one of which is listed as a Masonic Knights Templar sword (lot #615).

While this is not 'antique' , it is actually a Knights of Pythias sword (the FCB acrostic for their motto). It seems quite possible Valentino might have been awarded this by the local lodge, the Damon Lodge, #338, Hollywood.

In "Valentino as I Knew Him" (George Ullman, 1926) it is noted that Valentino and his wife traveled to Europe in 1924 and bought props for their upcoming movie "The Hooded Falcon" which was to be set in 14th c. Spain.
While these included clothing and other antique items, I would presume there was weaponry as well. This movie ended up not being made.

In this same book, Ullman notes, "...if a reporter showed any interest in the armor or firearms of which the Valentino collection is sui generis (=of its own kind), here once more his showmanship came into evidence. Not only did he possess specimens of every sort of sword, cuirass,spear, dart, javelin, assegai and what not, but firearms from the most ancient make down to the latest Colt were his. And if you thought the carving upon an ancient sword blade was inexplicable or unknown to Rudolph Valentino, all you had to do to correct your impression was the question him. With a flow of words in the careful English which many foreigners require, he would explain to you, not only the carvings significance, but in all probability, an historical sketch of the man who made it".

His mansion, named 'Falcons Lair', for the movie "The Hooded Falcon" was carefully appointed with antique furnishings which lent to his genuine Italian ancestry, and now, as I have found..........the antique arms which were in panoply on the walls and various displays, were genuine, and he clearly was discerning and knew the history of them.

It would be difficult to determine what became of these weapons after dispersed into private collections after auction. As a discerning collector it is doubtful that any weapons intended for use in films that were not genuine antiques would be of interest to him. Clearly antique weapons would have been acquired by other studios much in the manner Valentino sought them for his movie.

[fernando]

Good stuff, Jim. I am glad that my unprepared notion of this subject matches with reality. And so it appears that good old Rodolfo favored the use of authentic weapons on stage rather than replicas.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Wonderful analogies Norman!!! and I have honestly gotten eye strain from trying to spot the weapons hung on Holmes' walls in various versions from film and TV.
Absolutely very British colonial influences, and Watson in 2nd Afghan War would have certainly brought in such things, I always recall the picture of Gordon, the notable Persian slipper with Holmes' stash etc.
It seemed I have always watched with eagle eye the weapons in films, and do all to restrain from declaring something 'not right', lest my wife bop me with the proverbial frying pan

In "Gunga Din" (the 30s original, which I have probably watched reaching a Guiness record since I was a kid) at some point I got stuck on the strange axe the commander held, said 'thuggee'. I spent it seems years trying to research these and these obscure bandits. I always wondered it the one they had was real, as these are so rare, never actually have seen one, anywhere.

All very best,
Jim

Hello Jim

Since we are talking about films dedicated to Sherlock Holmes, it is necessary to recall the Russian version. There, in Watson's room, "oriental arms" are also presented. But, if you look closely at the items that can be seen on the carpet, the idea comes that Watson not only participated in military operations in Afghanistan, but he also had a secret mission to the Caucasus
By the way, if you haven't seen this movie, I highly recommend it.

This series received positive reviews in England. Critics noted that the creators of the series carefully treated the original source, and the atmosphere of the works of Conan Doyle was conveyed with true love by true connoisseurs of the classics of the detective genre]. Margaret Thatcher spoke approvingly about the series. In 2006, Russian actor Vasily Livanov, who played the role of Sherlock Holmes, became a Commander of the Order of the British Empire, and Livanov was named one of the best actors who played Sherlock Holmes.

https://russianfilmhub.com/tvshows/t...and-dr-watson/

https://youtu.be/lg2zQreEVKI

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Hello Jim

Since we are talking about films dedicated to Sherlock Holmes, it is necessary to recall the Russian version. There, in Watson's room, "oriental weapons" are also presented. But, if you look closely at the items that can be seen on the carpet, the idea comes that Watson not only participated in military operations in Afghanistan, but he also had a secret mission to the Caucasus
By the way, if you haven't seen this movie, I highly recommend it.

This series received positive reviews in England. Critics noted that the creators of the series carefully treated the original source, and the atmosphere of the works of Conan Doyle was conveyed with true love by true connoisseurs of the classics of the detective genre]. Margaret Thatcher spoke approvingly about the series. In 2006, Russian actor Vasily Livanov, who played the role of Sherlock Holmes, became a Commander of the Order of the British Empire, and Livanov was named one of the best actors who played Sherlock Holmes.

https://russianfilmhub.com/tvshows/t...and-dr-watson/

https://youtu.be/lg2zQreEVKI

Thank you so much!! This is wonderful, fantastic and brilliant! I had no idea of this Russian version of 'Sherlock Holmes', and the panoply of weapons on the wall there is outstanding. I see the extremely recurved Central Asian sword, the Russian military hanger with serrated back and of course the shashkas.

With the British situation in Afghanistan in the mid 1800s into the 20th c. it would not be the least bit surprising that there were connections to the Caucusus. As well related in Peter Hopkirks "The Great Game", these regions were a hotbed of intrigues that were far more complex and extended than just confined to Afghanistan.
I would say that is a fascinating interpretation, and I must check it out!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

Why does Bannerman come to mind when we are discussing movie props.

Rick, I missed your post! Bannerman's, the most intriguing surplus 'kingdom' (they had a castle on an island in the Hudson River) of all time!
I had thought of them with regard to movie and theatrical props using actual antique weapons, but as yet have not found any recorded links to these entities ever getting them from Bannermans.

It seems likely that stage drama producers situated on the East Coast might have utilized the huge stockpiles from them, but their productions were quite small compared to movies. The film industry of course was moved to the West Coast in the teens, thus beginning Hollywood, so unless there were cross country dealings, any use of them would have been incidental.

However, when one thinks of movies of the scope of Griffiths and of course DeMille.......the volumes of weapons needed would far exceed simple antique shops!

If only I had a time mschine! would have loved to prowl through the piles of old weapons they must have had!

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much!! This is wonderful, fantastic and brilliant! I had no idea of this Russian version of 'Sherlock Holmes', and the panoply of weapons on the wall there is outstanding. I see the extremely recurved Central Asian sword, the Russian military hanger with serrated back and of course the shashkas.

With the British situation in Afghanistan in the mid 1800s into the 20th c. it would not be the least bit surprising that there were connections to the Caucusus. As well related in Peter Hopkirks "The Great Game", these regions were a hotbed of intrigues that were far more complex and extended than just confined to Afghanistan.
I would say that is a fascinating interpretation, and I must check it out!

I think that the props used in the film were not the recurved Central Asian sword, but one of those items that we sometimes call "Kurdish or Transcaucasian yataghans". By the way, many thanks for the information about Zichy's 1897 edition. I studied this book with great interest.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mahratt

I think that the props used in the film were not the recurved Central Asian sword, but one of those items that we sometimes call "Kurdish or Transcaucasian yataghans". By the way, many thanks for the information about Zichy's 1897 edition. I studied this book with great interest.

Yes, you're right, that oddly recurved example is one of those transcaucasian 'yataghans', as seen in that Zichy reference. I'm glad I could help with note of the reference. I only had the illustration plate sent to me by a friend many years ago as I was searching for it from the 1941 article by Jacobsen & Triikman.

[Jim McDougall]

In references online regarding "The Mark of Zorro" (1920) with Douglas Fairbanks, in the scenes it appears the swords being used are fencing sabers of the period, which it seems it was indicated these being lighter were more adaptable to faster movement. The leading men of these 'swashbuckling' films were often somewhat familiar with fencing, and there were several 'fight masters' who coached them in orchestrating the dynamic action scenes.

With 'stage combat' the movements are broader and more exaggerated, especially with the silent films, where action was the key dynamic of the film.

In "The First King of Hollywood:the Life of Douglas Fairbanks", Tracy Goessel. 2016, p.263, it is noted "...outtakes from Fairbanks' swashbuckling films document that every movement of the blade and leap upon or over furniture was carefully choreographed to prevent the actors from being cut to ribbons.
It is worth noting that the individual shots within the fencing sequences were sustained in length. Most Hollywood films keep sword fighting sequences to a maximum of three moves per shot: thrust, parry, counterparry. More than this and untrained actors can get hurt".

While visually, it seems the 1920 film was with fencing sabers, this dialogue suggests that actually viable swords might have been used in some degree with some of the extras.

In the scenes shown in these attachments of the 1920 'Zorro', it can be seen that Zorro has a pistol. As always, the only observations on weaponry as captioned speak ONLY of the pistol, and note observantly that it is a percussion lock, anachronistic to the period.
There are NO references to swords in these captions, as typically the case, but guns seem always of interest. Hmmm.

In an account by an actor in "the Iron Mask" (1929), he complained to the famed fight master Fred Cavens about the use of 'protective sheaths' on the tips of the rapiers (which he suggests are in 'Spanish' style).
Cavens responds, "...after each contest, there are many hands bleeding. What would it be if they were not protected by this sheath? I can almost teach the notions of fencing to the actors, but as for the extras, it is impossible and there is not enough time. It is because of this that each contest looks like a sharpening of knives-flic, flat, whirling their rapiers , big gestures to be skewered a hundred times!".

from "Douglas Fairbanks: and the American Century" (J.Tibbetts & J.Welsh, 2014, p.373).

On these early films, there was also a well known historian, artist, sculptor who was an advisor and consultant named Dwight Franklin, supervising set production and appointments etc. I learned of him through authors on these topics I had spoken with, and in checking with Los Angeles County Museum, there is a notable collection of vintage weapons of his that was donated some years ago.
While I have not yet seen these, I understand they are indeed authentic, and am compelled to think they may be sourced from the holdings in studio prop departments.

The last photo is of an on board 'melee' (?) in the 1940 production of "the Sea Hawk" ( "Hollywood History of the World". George MacDonald Fraser, 1988, p.75). I am unclear on how this could be imagined as a pitched battle.. it is patently ridiculous. The men are all holding swords up high,wide open to attack, and any sort of combat would be impossible.
In any case, the swords seem to be of epee, cuphilt and other, but to be of likely antique nature.
By this time, as through the 30s, there were huge stocks of props, costumes and fixtures in the empire of these movie studios in warehouses.

As yet however, I have not found any information on these studio warehouses, what became of the holdings, or any reference to authentic items, especially weapons, within them. I would appreciate any reading this who might have such information letting me know.

[mahratt]

Hello Jim.
I can tell you how the theatrical and film requisite situation looked like in Russia. In Russia in the 19th and early 20th centuries, many people had collections of antique arms (both Eastern and European). Interest in collecting antique arms was not the exclusive privilege of the Tzar family. Ordinary officers often possessed very worthy collections of arms and armor.
After the Revolution of 1917 and the Civil War in Russia, there were also a lot of weapons left, including sabers and daggers.
Russians who emigrated took part of the weapons with them, some were transferred by representatives of the Soviet government to museums, and some were sent as a requisite to film studios and theaters. And for a long time, authentic items were used on the stage and when shooting movies. Since the late 1980s, and especially in the 1990s (with the collapse of the USSR), enterprising collectors traveled around Russia, visiting theaters and buying authentic, sometimes unique arms and armor from them. There were no special storages in the theaters for arms that were used as props, and sometimes a fine Caucasian shashka could lie on a shelf next to a wooden sword, the "blade" of which was painted with silver paint. In film studios, the situation was more strict. Therefore, samples of ancient arms and armor are still preserved there.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Dima! This is fascinating insight, and it is amazing how these important weapons ended up in such unusual circumstances. One never knows what treasures are residing in places nobody would think to look, and often the uninitiated would see a sword as 'just another sword', not realizing.

While I have never really thought a great deal about prop arms in theater and film, I had not realized how many authentic weapons inadvertently ended up in this context. In a recent project where I have been in contact with certain authors and museums I have seen this phenomenon has been much more prevalent in the past than I imagined.
These days there are reproductions, and costume and prop firms who supply studios and theatrical groups, so the 'golden days' are gone, however many of those items from before thankfully have made it to proper care.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Dima! This is fascinating insight, and it is amazing how these important weapons ended up in such unusual circumstances. One never knows what treasures are residing in places nobody would think to look, and often the uninitiated would see a sword as 'just another sword', not realizing.

While I have never really thought a great deal about prop arms in theater and film, I had not realized how many authentic weapons inadvertently ended up in this context. In a recent project where I have been in contact with certain authors and museums I have seen this phenomenon has been much more prevalent in the past than I imagined.
These days there are reproductions, and costume and prop firms who supply studios and theatrical groups, so the 'golden days' are gone, however many of those items from before thankfully have made it to proper care.

From what I know for sure. On the set of the Soviet film "White Sun of the Desert" about the struggle of the Soviet authorities with the Basmachi (by the way, according to a long tradition, Russian cosmonauts always watch this film before flying into space), a lot of authentic arms (mostly Caucasian) were used and, oddly enough, an authentic Japanese army sword was used . This sword is now in my friend's possession. His father received this sword as a gift from the director of the film.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sun_of_the_Desert

https://yandex.ru/video/preview/4480302271478583828

[fernando]

... real props ?


(Courtesy Heritage Auctions)

.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mahratt

From what I know for sure. On the set of the Soviet film "White Sun of the Desert" about the struggle of the Soviet authorities with the Basmachi (by the way, according to a long tradition, Russian cosmonauts always watch this film before flying into space), a lot of authentic arms (mostly Caucasian) were used and, oddly enough, an authentic Japanese army sword was used . This sword is now in my friend's possession. His father received this sword as a gift from the director of the film.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sun_of_the_Desert

https://yandex.ru/video/preview/4480302271478583828

This is great Dima! I have always been intrigued by those M1898 Mauser pistols (in the guys belt), a most curious form gun. I recall in lore that it was said these, which were made in good number in China, as well as Argentina, and were termed 'bandit' guns or to that effect.
The ejection of the shells had something to do with the odd side hold while firing, which thanks to director John Woo, has become popularly used in movies and in accord by modern 'gang bangers'.
Apparently the mauser was held in a side rather than upright aimed position, and in a semi circular 'sweeping' range of rapid fire.

While looking 'bad ass' (?) it seems less than effective in actual firing use, but looks 'threatening' on film, naturally followed by those who are inspired by and try to imitate anything seen in pop culture.

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, this is absolutely BRILLIANT research! Thank you! This is exactly the kind of material I was hoping for.

It appears that if this company, Western Costume Company, which is I believe located in Burbank near the Universal studios attraction and former back lots, was founded in 1912, it was naturally supplying both stage and film venues.

The film noted in this amazing authenticating document was Errol Flynn and Anthony Quinn in "Against All Flags" (1952). I could not find stills of this film with Flynn with anything but wielding a pistol, though I saw one of him holding what is again, a fencing saber. His co star Maureen O'Hara noted that he practiced his fencing meticulously every day.
I watched a segment of the film with him in sword duel with Quinn, and I am certain he was using this sword.

In my original query I was hoping to discover what 'authentic' antique weaponry was used in these 'early' films. In research it is noted that Rudolph Valentino traveled abroad purportedly to acquire props for one of his upcoming films. With his clearly established interest in vintage arms, he most certainly acquired numbers of them in these trips.

In these early days in Los Angeles and of course most major cities, there was an abundance of antiquities available, and heavily appointed interiors with antiques was of course popular at large. One of most enjoyable things in watching 'old' classic films is the fascinating array of antiques always generously adorning the sets.

I am thinking that even with costume and prop suppliers such as this firm, in the early days, the studios and then private film companies augmented their holdings of props etc. with many genuine antiques. These were held in various stores and likely moved together as smaller studios joined larger, and the back lot warehouses were combined. As mentioned earlier, a classic example of literal 'prop warehouse raiding' were the horribly anachronistic "Flash Gordon" series of the 30s.
In these, supposed to be in the 'future' actors were wearing Greek and Roman costumes, using contrived 'ray guns' and swords etc.in a comical combination.

By the 40s and into 50s, it seems there were more light 'stage' weapons being produced (as seen here), while the background may have had extras using these old weapons. The degree and verification remains unclear, but as I have mentioned, it was in the 70s that I was aware of genuine antique arms being obtained from 'movie studio warehouses'.

It will take more research to find evidence of these early instances of actual vintage weapons used in films. In 1935, "Captain Blood" with Flynn, the muskets in use to represent the 'fusil boucanier' (of the buccaneers) appear to be authentic French M1777 Charleville's. As always, it is far more likely to attend to the firearms than any edged weapons at hand.

[Jerseyman]

The first time I worked with the Royal Shakespeare Company the armourer brought down a load of 'cutlasses' for me to choose from. I was completely astonished to realise that instead of being theatrical weapons around half of them were cut down French military sabres with St. Etienne inscriptions from the 1870s on their spines.

One of the older drama schools at which I have worked has a handful of British sabres and basket hilts with badly notched blades. Even a mortuary sword which has been very poorly treated considering its age and value. These of course would have been donated in the early 20C and used for Shakespeare productions at the time, with no knowledge of their intrinsic value or history.

In 19C Britain it was very common for people to donate both exotic weapons and British military weapons for local theatre productions, many of which were later consolidated by the formation of the big props-hire houses which bought up props and costumes from regional theatres. Most of those weapons have since been weeded out by people who knew what they were looking at, and have found there way into private collections.

That said, when it comes to firearms the large weapons-hire companies very often use deactivated weapons. I once worked on a show where the hired firearms were all deac AK47s.

At a London arms fair in the late '90s I was chatting to a dealer who worked for a theatrical armourer in the '60s, who described missing out on an odachi being sold out of stock by the company. He said it was about 2.5 metres long and had been painted entirely gold. It had been bought by the company from the D'Oyly Carte Opera Company who had purchased it in the 1880s along with a multitude of other props for the very first production of The Mikado. According to him, the person who beat him to it sent it to Japan to be cleaned and assessed, and apparently it turned out to be a 15C temple sword (? not my area of knowledge) by a famous sword smith, and consequently worth an absolute fortune. Thirty years later he was still kicking himself!

If you're interested in the fighting aspects of the golden age of Hollywood you could check out these books.

Swordsmen of the Screen: from Douglas Fairbanks to Michael York
Richards, J (1977)

Cads and Cavaliers: The Film Adventurers
Thomas, T (1973)

Apart from my interest in a broad range of ethnographic weapons I also collect theatrical weaponry. The irony for me is that these pieces are very often mistaken for real antique weapons and consequently command commensurate prices, and trying to persuade dealers otherwise is very much a losing battle!

[Jim McDougall]

This is an absolutely outstanding description of exactly the circumstances I was looking for! THANK YOU SO MUCH! Brilliant!

We often wonder how when so many weapons obviously were produced, many hundreds of thousands, yet many are hard to find, some even deemed 'rare'.
The anecdote on that Japanese sword is quintessant, for these 'diamonds in the rough' found in incredibly austere situations.

I think of the case for the well known Bannerman's island with literally tons of hoarded surplus weapons of every kind. A friend who had worked at movie studios spoke of tons of old weapons into land fills...old gun barrels used as rebar in concrete installations.

Those are excellent books, thank you! and I do have the one by Richards. I did take fencing about a zillion years ago and much of it included 'stage combat' which was quite elaborate compared to actual fencing.

[werecow]

I watched Hight Road to China (1983) the other day and was pleasantly surprised to see that the Afghan's were using actual khyber knives. It was a bit hard to screencap so this was the best shot I could get.

I also once bought a Sikin Panjang and a Co Jang in poor state mostly as fixer uppers (I can use a bit of practice). The lady who sold them told me they had been used in a theater production (unfortunately I never got the name) and that is how they got so banged up. They're sharp, original weapons, and the sikin panjang in particular looks to have been smashed into stuff hard and a lot (it's buckling and bent in multiple places and there is a crack in the blade and some delaminations, and the grip has split), so those actors were dedicated!

Still haven't gotten around to cleaning them and fixing that split grip. If anyone has advice on the repairs (e.g. how to stabilize that blister or what glue works well on horn grips) I am always grateful for your input.

[Rick]

Splits in the handles of older Sikkins seem almost ubiquitous.

[Jim McDougall]

Werecow that is great! "High Road to China" was another favorite movie!
Good catch noticing those Khyber knives. That movie was based on a novel by the same name, by Australian writer Jon Cleary. It is not noted , but it seems clear that the basis for the book was the adventurer Richard Halliburton, who flew in a round the globe expedition in a Stearman biplane. In Persia, he met a German aviatrix and they combined itineraries. The concept of an aviation adventure to exotic places with a pair of biplanes as the case with these flyers seems to be the same setting.
In the movie, the costuming seemed well researched.

In his book, "Seven League Boots" which I read before seeing the movie he visited Georgia in the Caucusus, where he met the Khevsur people.
The pictures in the book were the first I had ever heard of these people, and years later got one of these swords.

The photo is of Halliburton wearing the mail these people were still wearing in the 1930s.

Interesting note on the Sikkin swords, and that they were used theatrically, indeed does sound like dedicated actors.

[kronckew]

Jim, there are a number of posts on the forum about the Khevsurli.



My favourite story there is that in WW1 They got finally the word that the Tsar was recruiting men for the war with Germany & Austria-Hungary, so they gathered in their hundreds, Mounted, chain mail on all, shields, lances, swords, etc. and marched to battle.



Only to find the pass out was snowed in and impassible from a set of particularly hard winters. By the time it cleared, the war was over.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Jim, there are a number of posts on the forum about the Khevsurli.



My favourite story there is that in WW1 They got finally the word that the Tsar was recruiting men for the war with Germany & Austria-Hungary, so they gathered in their hundreds, Mounted, chain mail on all, shields, lances, swords, etc. and marched to battle.



Only to find the pass out was snowed in and impassible from a set of particularly hard winters. By the time it cleared, the war was over.

Thanks Wayne, that anecdote was recounted by Halliburton in "Seven League Boots". The thing was that these Khevsur warriors were still wearing mail and dueling with these swords when Halliburton was there. When I found the Khevsur sword I got, the guy thought it was Zaporozhian cossack...I only knew what is was because of the pictures in the book.

Getting back to the main topic,it seems there were numbers of weapons and armor made for plays and such performances before the silver screen days. I am wondering if anyone has seen any specific literature on this apparently very esoteric subject. Jerseyman, do you know of references?
The books you noted on the actors as swordsmen, but nothing on the weapons they used.