Two Indo-Persian ? daggers for I.D. and comment

colin henshaw · 12th July 2009, 04:14 PM

Hi

I recently acquired these two daggers, and as I have only limited knowledge of Indian weapons, would someone be able to identify and date them for me please.

The one with the silver scabbard (came with some African material), looks like it has a walrus ivory handle, whilst the other one has a bone handle.

Any information would be appreciated, thanks.

Atlantia · 12th July 2009, 04:55 PM

Hi Colin,

Correction:

I'm now thinking the top one (Jambiya) is 'Indian' but possibly Islamic. Looks rather special, and the long thin blade is quite distinctive.
I agree looks like Walrus

I'd date it early/mid 19th at a guess.
I'd want a good close look at that blade!!!!

Regards
Gene

P.S. I'm thinking the lower one is also about the same date, but I have a nagging suspicion that they have a specific name for this style, thats escaping me at the moment. Bet Jens will be along to tell us in a mo.
Do you notice that the velvet on the scabbard looks exactly like what was left on my recently aquired indian Jambiya?
In any event they are beauties!

Ascalon · 12th July 2009, 05:45 PM

The 2nd is Tiger teeth jambiya dagger.
Tiger Teeth dagger are coming from North India, They are characterized by the slender curved blade with reinforced edges. The hilt is very typical with three lobed pommel.

The first looks turkish dagger but unusual blade, i'm not sure.

colin henshaw · 12th July 2009, 06:59 PM

Hi Gene

Thanks...here are some close-ups of the blade and handle of the first dagger.

Both daggers are as they came, the blades of both need some attention.

Regards
Colin

Atlantia · 12th July 2009, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ascalon

The 2nd is Tiger teeth jambiya dagger.
Tiger Teeth dagger are coming from North India, They are characterized by the slender curved blade with reinforced edges. The hilt is very typical with three lobed pommel.

The first looks turkish dagger but unusual blade, i'm not sure.

Tiger Tooth! yay!

I also thought Turkish for the top one initially, but then started to doubt....
Hmm, see what I've got in books. BRB

Atlantia · 12th July 2009, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Hi Gene

Thanks...here are some close-ups of the blade and handle of the first dagger.

Both daggers are as they came, the blades of both need some attention.

Regards
Colin

Its a beauty, well they both of course.
definately looks like Walrus, but the blade is really interesting (well to me anyway) and I've not seen one quite like it.

My initial thoughts (like Ascalon) were that it was Turkish...
So I went to the books.....
Heres a similar shape dagger described as a Jambiya, Turkish 17thC

then I doubted it because of that Walrus handle and the plain shape... So I had a look through some more books and found this one with no description but in a group of 'Jambiyas' which does appear to be Indian:

The distinctive scabbard should be the giveaway for origin.
The blade is really interesting, I cant see any waering but I'd be hella tempted to try some lemon juice on it!

P.S. how does it look 'in' the scabbard?

Regards (And rather jealous)
Gene

colin henshaw · 12th July 2009, 08:15 PM

Many thanks for the information and pictures Gene, glad you like the daggers.

Here is a picture of the walrus ivory handle one in its scabbard. This one has a good provenance...its from Cassillis House in Ayrshire (there was some interesting African stuff I wanted and I had to buy the whole group).

Regards
Colin

TVV · 12th July 2009, 08:34 PM

Colin,
I believe that the hilt of the top dagger is unmistakebly Ottoman, and is typically found on daggers that are described as being worn in the Ottoman court.
I am attaching a scan from Astvatsaturian's excellent book on Turkish arms, where the description is disappointingly unspecific - "Daggers with Straight Blades and a White Bone Hilts".
Your dagger has cleaner lines and its hilt and scabbard do not have an elaborate docarion with corals, but in a way this makes it even more attractive. I believe I have seen others with a curved blade.
Regards,
Teodor

Atlantia · 12th July 2009, 08:53 PM

Hi Colin,
Well! Teodor's got it bang on the button there. Interesting variation!
You must have been gutted at having to buy them as well as your African items

Never bloody happens to me

Seriously though mate, you must be chuffed!
Wonder what the opinions on the blade will be?

Regards
Gene

Jeff Pringle · 13th July 2009, 11:55 AM

The walrus one is worth an etch, my magic wootz vision says "yes, perhaps"

graeme gt · 13th July 2009, 05:11 PM

Hi Colin , i see you managed to get knife all the way into scabbard what was the problem ?

colin henshaw · 13th July 2009, 05:44 PM

Hi Graeme

Yes, when I got the dagger (walrus handle one), the blade did not go into the scabbard for about the last inch or so. There was a bit of cloth stuffed down there - amazing what you can do with a bent coat-hanger !

Regards

colin henshaw · 15th July 2009, 01:43 PM

Many thanks to those who helped to identify my two daggers - much appreciated. The Ottoman example is especially interesting.

Colin

12th July 2009, 04:14 PM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Two Indo-Persian ? daggers for I.D. and comment Hi I recently acquired these two daggers, and as I have only limited knowledge of Indian weapons, would someone be able to identify and date them for me please. The one with the silver scabbard (came with some African material), looks like it has a walrus ivory handle, whilst the other one has a bone handle. Any information would be appreciated, thanks. Attached Images

12th July 2009, 04:55 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Colin, Correction: I'm now thinking the top one (Jambiya) is 'Indian' but possibly Islamic. Looks rather special, and the long thin blade is quite distinctive. I agree looks like Walrus I'd date it early/mid 19th at a guess. I'd want a good close look at that blade!!!! Regards Gene P.S. I'm thinking the lower one is also about the same date, but I have a nagging suspicion that they have a specific name for this style, thats escaping me at the moment. Bet Jens will be along to tell us in a mo. Do you notice that the velvet on the scabbard looks exactly like what was left on my recently aquired indian Jambiya? In any event they are beauties! Last edited by Atlantia; 12th July 2009 at 05:11 PM.

12th July 2009, 06:59 PM	#4
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Gene Thanks...here are some close-ups of the blade and handle of the first dagger. Both daggers are as they came, the blades of both need some attention. Regards Colin Attached Images

12th July 2009, 08:15 PM	#7
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Many thanks for the information and pictures Gene, glad you like the daggers. Here is a picture of the walrus ivory handle one in its scabbard. This one has a good provenance...its from Cassillis House in Ayrshire (there was some interesting African stuff I wanted and I had to buy the whole group). Regards Colin Attached Images

12th July 2009, 08:34 PM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	Colin, I believe that the hilt of the top dagger is unmistakebly Ottoman, and is typically found on daggers that are described as being worn in the Ottoman court. I am attaching a scan from Astvatsaturian's excellent book on Turkish arms, where the description is disappointingly unspecific - "Daggers with Straight Blades and a White Bone Hilts". Your dagger has cleaner lines and its hilt and scabbard do not have an elaborate docarion with corals, but in a way this makes it even more attractive. I believe I have seen others with a curved blade. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

12th July 2009, 05:45 PM	#3
Ascalon Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: France Posts: 45	The 2nd is Tiger teeth jambiya dagger. Tiger Teeth dagger are coming from North India, They are characterized by the slender curved blade with reinforced edges. The hilt is very typical with three lobed pommel. The first looks turkish dagger but unusual blade, i'm not sure.

12th July 2009, 08:53 PM	#9
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Colin, Well! Teodor's got it bang on the button there. Interesting variation! You must have been gutted at having to buy them as well as your African items Never bloody happens to me Seriously though mate, you must be chuffed! Wonder what the opinions on the blade will be? Regards Gene

13th July 2009, 11:55 AM	#10
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	The walrus one is worth an etch, my magic wootz vision says "yes, perhaps"

13th July 2009, 05:11 PM	#11
graeme gt Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 97	Hi Colin , i see you managed to get knife all the way into scabbard what was the problem ?

13th July 2009, 05:44 PM	#12
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Graeme Yes, when I got the dagger (walrus handle one), the blade did not go into the scabbard for about the last inch or so. There was a bit of cloth stuffed down there - amazing what you can do with a bent coat-hanger ! Regards

15th July 2009, 01:43 PM	#13
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Many thanks to those who helped to identify my two daggers - much appreciated. The Ottoman example is especially interesting. Colin