An extremely complicated blade pattern

RSWORD · 26th May 2015, 12:40 PM

This post is for those collectors that appreciate patterned blades and for any blacksmiths that have created pattern welded blades.

This is a Chinese blade, 17/18th century, with a blade that features both twistcore AND a horse tooth Hamon. Fine twistcore that is tight without seam openings is an accomplishment and horse tooth Hamon by itself is a complicated feat. To find them together is quite rare.

Enjoy.

Roland_M · 26th May 2015, 01:43 PM

A very interesting blade with Torsion damascus pattern. But i can see no hamon. In my understanding the hamon is the transition area between the hard cutting edge and the softer steel above the cutting edge. The color of a real hamon differs from white to black, depending on the angle of light.

Can you make pictures with flashlight or with a scanner please? This would show the hamon more clearly.

And can you make a picture of the whole sword please?

I added two pictures for you, one shows the hamon on my yoroi doshi tanto and the other one shows the compositions of a torsion damascus pattern, grinded down step by step.

Regards Roland

Ian · 26th May 2015, 03:41 PM

Roland, are you suggesting that the absence of an identifiable hamon implies that Rick's blade has an inserted edge--a three layer construction in the manner of the Japanese san mei technique?
Ian.

Roland_M · 26th May 2015, 04:36 PM

Ian, as far as i know, some high quality antique straight swords from China have a hamon. But i have never seen such a blade, they are seemingly quite rare.

If not repolished, the hamon disappear after a few decades, depending on the quality of forging and heating.

I cannot see, whether there is a hamon or not. This is why i asked for more pictures with flash. Additionally i suggest a careful cleaning with a non-abrasive metal polish.

In my opinion this is not a three layers construction. The border between the outer and inner steel is normally more or less straight or chaotic.
Imho the blade looks like high quality forging.

I like the blade very much.

Roland

Battara · 26th May 2015, 04:40 PM

What an interesting mix of patterns!

josh stout · 26th May 2015, 05:55 PM

I think the confusion is from the phrase "horse tooth hamon". As far as I know, the horse tooth pattern in Chinese swords is "jia gang" or inserted edge construction, while a similar wavy edge pattern, made only through differential heat treatment, is found on some Japanese swords. Chinese sabers often will have both an inserted edge and differential heat treatment, but do not usually show a fancy pattern in the heat treatment. Some show an abrupt transition while others have a slow cloudy fade in, but I have never seen anything like a horse tooth done with heat treatment. Most twist core Chinese sabers do not have an inserted edge, so this one with the horse tooth pattern is truly rare. In high polish, the heat treatment can be obvious, but also it will also show as part of a patina. I am not sure if this one shows differential edge heating, but it is still amazing.

Very, very nice

RSWORD · 26th May 2015, 06:04 PM

The blade has an inserted edge between cheeks of twistcore steel. If you look at my bottom picture and then to the left side of the blade, which is the cutting edge, you will see regular undulations. Below those undulations there is no pattern. This is the area I am referring to as the hamon. While my pictures may not highlight it particularly well there is definitely a clear delineation. Look to the right side of the screen and you can see the twistcore pattern goes to the spine. That regular up and down undulation is referred to as horse tooth by the Chinese because of the regularity. Horse tooth hamon are fairly rare on their own but to accomplish this between cheeks of twistcore steel is a particularly fine forging.

I tend to use hamon in both a Japanese and non Japanese context. The high art polish of a Japanese sword is what really gives it that milky white coloration. Take a Japanese sword for just a foundation polish and you will clearly see the "hamon" but it will not be milky. Many cultures have blades made from inserts steel between cheeks of soft steel and if polished you will see that delineation between the two zones. You see it in Moro, in Chinese, in Indian and occasionally in Southeast Asia. You also see changes in coloration from heat treatment along the cutting edges. Some dha, for example, have their edges flamed hardened and this creates a dark zone along the edge. You see this on wootz steel sometimes. There will be a clear color differentiation between the hardened area and the rest of the blade. You even see it in Nepalese kukri and American Bowie knives. You can learn a lot about how the blade was forged, quenched and hardened from a professional polish and etch. I even one time had an early Kilij blade that had an inserted edge of high carbon steel between cheeks of wootz steel!

26th May 2015, 12:40 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	An extremely complicated blade pattern This post is for those collectors that appreciate patterned blades and for any blacksmiths that have created pattern welded blades. This is a Chinese blade, 17/18th century, with a blade that features both twistcore AND a horse tooth Hamon. Fine twistcore that is tight without seam openings is an accomplishment and horse tooth Hamon by itself is a complicated feat. To find them together is quite rare. Enjoy. Attached Images

26th May 2015, 01:43 PM	#2
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	A very interesting blade with Torsion damascus pattern. But i can see no hamon. In my understanding the hamon is the transition area between the hard cutting edge and the softer steel above the cutting edge. The color of a real hamon differs from white to black, depending on the angle of light. Can you make pictures with flashlight or with a scanner please? This would show the hamon more clearly. And can you make a picture of the whole sword please? I added two pictures for you, one shows the hamon on my yoroi doshi tanto and the other one shows the compositions of a torsion damascus pattern, grinded down step by step. Regards Roland Attached Images

26th May 2015, 04:36 PM	#4
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Ian, as far as i know, some high quality antique straight swords from China have a hamon. But i have never seen such a blade, they are seemingly quite rare. If not repolished, the hamon disappear after a few decades, depending on the quality of forging and heating. I cannot see, whether there is a hamon or not. This is why i asked for more pictures with flash. Additionally i suggest a careful cleaning with a non-abrasive metal polish. In my opinion this is not a three layers construction. The border between the outer and inner steel is normally more or less straight or chaotic. Imho the blade looks like high quality forging. I like the blade very much. Roland Last edited by Roland_M; 26th May 2015 at 04:47 PM.

26th May 2015, 03:41 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Roland, are you suggesting that the absence of an identifiable hamon implies that Rick's blade has an inserted edge--a three layer construction in the manner of the Japanese san mei technique? Ian.

26th May 2015, 04:40 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	What an interesting mix of patterns!

26th May 2015, 05:55 PM	#6
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I think the confusion is from the phrase "horse tooth hamon". As far as I know, the horse tooth pattern in Chinese swords is "jia gang" or inserted edge construction, while a similar wavy edge pattern, made only through differential heat treatment, is found on some Japanese swords. Chinese sabers often will have both an inserted edge and differential heat treatment, but do not usually show a fancy pattern in the heat treatment. Some show an abrupt transition while others have a slow cloudy fade in, but I have never seen anything like a horse tooth done with heat treatment. Most twist core Chinese sabers do not have an inserted edge, so this one with the horse tooth pattern is truly rare. In high polish, the heat treatment can be obvious, but also it will also show as part of a patina. I am not sure if this one shows differential edge heating, but it is still amazing. Very, very nice

26th May 2015, 06:04 PM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	The blade has an inserted edge between cheeks of twistcore steel. If you look at my bottom picture and then to the left side of the blade, which is the cutting edge, you will see regular undulations. Below those undulations there is no pattern. This is the area I am referring to as the hamon. While my pictures may not highlight it particularly well there is definitely a clear delineation. Look to the right side of the screen and you can see the twistcore pattern goes to the spine. That regular up and down undulation is referred to as horse tooth by the Chinese because of the regularity. Horse tooth hamon are fairly rare on their own but to accomplish this between cheeks of twistcore steel is a particularly fine forging. I tend to use hamon in both a Japanese and non Japanese context. The high art polish of a Japanese sword is what really gives it that milky white coloration. Take a Japanese sword for just a foundation polish and you will clearly see the "hamon" but it will not be milky. Many cultures have blades made from inserts steel between cheeks of soft steel and if polished you will see that delineation between the two zones. You see it in Moro, in Chinese, in Indian and occasionally in Southeast Asia. You also see changes in coloration from heat treatment along the cutting edges. Some dha, for example, have their edges flamed hardened and this creates a dark zone along the edge. You see this on wootz steel sometimes. There will be a clear color differentiation between the hardened area and the rest of the blade. You even see it in Nepalese kukri and American Bowie knives. You can learn a lot about how the blade was forged, quenched and hardened from a professional polish and etch. I even one time had an early Kilij blade that had an inserted edge of high carbon steel between cheeks of wootz steel!