A Lovely Indonesian Parang With An Amazing Pedang Lurus Style Hilt

CharlesS · 26th August 2016, 10:31 PM

This Indonesian sword/pedang I suspect is Javanese, and is uniquely mounted in fine silver fittings, with the hilt in particular showing amazing craftsmanship. For lack of a better way to phrase it, I would call the hilt type something more typically seen on a pedang lurus or pedang tusuk. Please note the relief work. Not only is the raised work more exaggerated than usual, but look at the tiny scales(think naga) and the "hair" at the top. The detail is just incredible to me.

The blade is a rather average pamor steel one. The scabbard is hardwood painted or lacquered black with silver mounts, each with engraved floral motifs along the sides.

Dimensions:
Overall length: 24.5in.
Blade lenght: 18.5in.

Battara · 27th August 2016, 01:28 AM

I'm usually not into these, but this one I like. The hilt looks like true repose and not just the chased form (or could also be soldered work as well). Better and more challenging craftsmanship.

Also the blade is unusual for these, no? I like this blade than the usual blades found on these.

Congrats!

CharlesS · 27th August 2016, 01:58 AM

Thanks Battara....indeed, you would appreciate this silver work! It's the "snake skin" base that blows my mind.

Spunjer · 27th August 2016, 10:50 AM

the attention to detail is just incredible!!

Ian · 28th August 2016, 06:07 AM

Lovely sword Charles.

Battara, I think this is more likely to solder work, creating a solid silver foundation for the grip, rather than repousse that might dent and damage from handling.

Seems like a lot of silver in this hilt--how heavy is the sword, Charles?

Ian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I'm usually not into these, but this one I like. The hilt looks like true repose and not just the chased form (or could also be soldered work as well). Better and more challenging craftsmanship.

Also the blade is unusual for these, no? I like this blade than the usual blades found on these.

Congrats!

A. G. Maisey · 28th August 2016, 09:03 AM

Actually, this is embossing work, pretty good quality. It is still done in a range of qualities in Kota Gede, just outside Jogja. They make all sorts of stuff, and export all over the world.

By "embossing", I mean that the design is applied from the face of the work that we see, not from the reverse face, as in repousse work. It is definitely not solder work.

It is a pedang, not a parang. I'd probably call it a pedang lameng, others might call it a luwuk, or a bandol or something else. There are a number of different pedang styles, and the differences between one style and another are often very small, and in my experience, very subject to individual opinion.

CharlesS · 28th August 2016, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is a pedang, not a parang. I'd probably call it a pedang lameng, others might call it a luwuk, or a bandol or something else. There are a number of different pedang styles, and the differences between one style and another are often very small, and in my experience, very subject to individual opinion.

Alan,

Can you please clarify the use of "parang" vs. "pedang". Previously I had thought two terms to be fairly generic terms for sword. Indonesians I have spoken to about the terms had laid them out in that way, but none of them were collectors so essentially it was just a look at Indonesian vocabulary! I had read an argument once that pedangs were more likely stabbing swords, and parangs were more likely slashers. I think a lot of us would benefit from clarification of these terms, perhaps adding "klewang" as well.

Thanks for you input!

A. G. Maisey · 29th August 2016, 12:24 AM

The word "pedang" is generic for "sword", there are many types and the classifying names used can vary from person to person.

A parang is a chopper or cleaver, but if you use a knife to chop, as in chopping up something in the kitchen that knife may be referred to as a parang while you are using it to chop, start using it cut again, and it becomes a knife again. The act of chopping is "marang".

A klewang is a pedang with broad curved blade, what we would call a cutlass.

The above is as I understand the terms to be used in Central Jawa, they may be used differently in other places.

Bahasa Indonesia is the public Indonesian National Language, people in different areas of Indonesia use local languages in normal daily contact and conversation. So what I've given above is Javanese usage in a part of Central Jawa.

Bahasa Indonesia usage requires a parang to have a short blade, for instance, a machete would be a parang.

Bahasa Indonesia is a language developed from the dialect of Malay spoken in South Sumatera. In BI, pedang is still "sword" and "klewang" is still a sword like a cutlass.

In Balinese "parang" and "klewang" appear not to exist, but of course could be used when BI is being used. "Pedang" becomes "peding".

A golok is is also a short chopping tool.

It is possible that pedang, parang, klewang, golok are all words that came into Indonesian and Javanese usage from Malay.

I do not know any of these words in Old Javanese, the language that was used generally in Jawa prior to the Second Kingdom of Mataram, late 16th century. The usual word for a sword in Old Javanese is "kadgo", which comes from the Sanscrit.

The correct classification of weaponry --- and maybe everything else --- in accord with indigenous usage can be incredibly difficult, if not impossible. Firstly we must identify the area that the object comes from, the period during which it was made, and then we must qualify the name we give it in accordance with both geographic location and time frame as well as the source of our information.

My personal preference is that when in doubt, I prefer to use English.

As an after thought:- the name used for any of the above could vary depending on situation and usage. What comes to mind is a situation that I was a part of where an old pedang was being used to chop grass along the side of the street, when the job was being done it was referred to as a parang, when the job was finished and it was wiped clean and put back into its scabbard it was referred to as a pedang.

CharlesS · 29th August 2016, 12:52 AM

Great contribution Alan. The "afterthought" goes a long ways towards explaining the difference in terms. One almost seems like the action while the other does the action.

A. G. Maisey · 29th August 2016, 03:59 AM

Not quite Charles.

To cut with a pedang is "medhang".

To chop is "marang", and the chopping can be with a knife or other chopper, but "marang" comes from "parang", thus a parang is a chopper, but a knife or sword can be a parang, depending on how it is used, and a parang can be a sword (pedang) depending on how it is used.

So if you "medhang" with a parang, during the course of that action, the parang becomes a pedang.

In Javanese a golok can be a dagger, in BI it is a something like a machete, and in current common usage I believe most Javanese would call a short dagger that can be used for chopping, a golok.

To slash with a klewang is "nglewang".

In Jawa/Bali/Madura it is not just a matter of looking up the form and name in book, or going to a dictionary and looking for the equivalent of sword. To use a language, and this includes words from a language we need to be able to think as the native speakers of that language think.

I've gone on record previously about the name game, so I will not now say any more, except that this "correct name " thing is not as easy as it might appear, at least not with weapons from Indonesia.

ariel · 29th August 2016, 05:01 AM

It is very funny: read post #152 at the Shashka topic.
Virtually identical info regarding North Caucasian languages and the Western propensity to mislabel Eastern weapons because of their ignorance of local linguistical nuances:-)))

Sajen · 29th August 2016, 12:36 PM

Beautiful pedang!

Battara · 29th August 2016, 09:36 PM

Alan, "parang" in Bahasa Indonesian, which is a cutting implement, may be related to the word "parang" in a sister language, Tagalog, which means "field".

The connection of cutting a field with a cutting implement. I find etymology fascinating.

A. G. Maisey · 30th August 2016, 01:23 AM

Maybe, but the same word "parang" has two entirely separate meanings in Javanese:-

a chopper, cleaver or knife

a cliff.

It is the name of a well known batik motif, where the motif supposedly represents a ruined cliff:- "parang rusak".

A lot of languages all across SE Asia have similarities, there is a good reference chart in Raffles that sets out in matrixical form words from various languages, you can read across the page and see the commonality. This same commonality can be found in Malay and in the Polynesian languages, as well as some words in common usage in the Aboriginal languages of Northern Australia.

In fact I have read that if you can understand Malay (ie, BI) you can more or less follow Maori.

The Northern Australian Aboriginals picked up the words from visiting fishermen from islands in the Archipelago, principally from Sulawesi, which in effect means Bugis, and there are acknowledged family links between people in Sulawesi and Aboriginal people in Northern Australia.

In Bahasa Indonesia we find a multitude of words that come from European languages, principally Portuguese, Dutch and English.

26th August 2016, 10:31 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	A Lovely Indonesian Parang With An Amazing Pedang Lurus Style Hilt This Indonesian sword/pedang I suspect is Javanese, and is uniquely mounted in fine silver fittings, with the hilt in particular showing amazing craftsmanship. For lack of a better way to phrase it, I would call the hilt type something more typically seen on a pedang lurus or pedang tusuk. Please note the relief work. Not only is the raised work more exaggerated than usual, but look at the tiny scales(think naga) and the "hair" at the top. The detail is just incredible to me. The blade is a rather average pamor steel one. The scabbard is hardwood painted or lacquered black with silver mounts, each with engraved floral motifs along the sides. Dimensions: Overall length: 24.5in. Blade lenght: 18.5in. Attached Images

27th August 2016, 01:28 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I'm usually not into these, but this one I like. The hilt looks like true repose and not just the chased form (or could also be soldered work as well). Better and more challenging craftsmanship. Also the blade is unusual for these, no? I like this blade than the usual blades found on these. Congrats!

27th August 2016, 01:58 AM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Thanks Battara....indeed, you would appreciate this silver work! It's the "snake skin" base that blows my mind.

27th August 2016, 10:50 AM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	the attention to detail is just incredible!!

28th August 2016, 09:03 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Actually, this is embossing work, pretty good quality. It is still done in a range of qualities in Kota Gede, just outside Jogja. They make all sorts of stuff, and export all over the world. By "embossing", I mean that the design is applied from the face of the work that we see, not from the reverse face, as in repousse work. It is definitely not solder work. It is a pedang, not a parang. I'd probably call it a pedang lameng, others might call it a luwuk, or a bandol or something else. There are a number of different pedang styles, and the differences between one style and another are often very small, and in my experience, very subject to individual opinion.

29th August 2016, 12:24 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	The word "pedang" is generic for "sword", there are many types and the classifying names used can vary from person to person. A parang is a chopper or cleaver, but if you use a knife to chop, as in chopping up something in the kitchen that knife may be referred to as a parang while you are using it to chop, start using it cut again, and it becomes a knife again. The act of chopping is "marang". A klewang is a pedang with broad curved blade, what we would call a cutlass. The above is as I understand the terms to be used in Central Jawa, they may be used differently in other places. Bahasa Indonesia is the public Indonesian National Language, people in different areas of Indonesia use local languages in normal daily contact and conversation. So what I've given above is Javanese usage in a part of Central Jawa. Bahasa Indonesia usage requires a parang to have a short blade, for instance, a machete would be a parang. Bahasa Indonesia is a language developed from the dialect of Malay spoken in South Sumatera. In BI, pedang is still "sword" and "klewang" is still a sword like a cutlass. In Balinese "parang" and "klewang" appear not to exist, but of course could be used when BI is being used. "Pedang" becomes "peding". A golok is is also a short chopping tool. It is possible that pedang, parang, klewang, golok are all words that came into Indonesian and Javanese usage from Malay. I do not know any of these words in Old Javanese, the language that was used generally in Jawa prior to the Second Kingdom of Mataram, late 16th century. The usual word for a sword in Old Javanese is "kadgo", which comes from the Sanscrit. The correct classification of weaponry --- and maybe everything else --- in accord with indigenous usage can be incredibly difficult, if not impossible. Firstly we must identify the area that the object comes from, the period during which it was made, and then we must qualify the name we give it in accordance with both geographic location and time frame as well as the source of our information. My personal preference is that when in doubt, I prefer to use English. As an after thought:- the name used for any of the above could vary depending on situation and usage. What comes to mind is a situation that I was a part of where an old pedang was being used to chop grass along the side of the street, when the job was being done it was referred to as a parang, when the job was finished and it was wiped clean and put back into its scabbard it was referred to as a pedang.

29th August 2016, 12:52 AM	#9
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Great contribution Alan. The "afterthought" goes a long ways towards explaining the difference in terms. One almost seems like the action while the other does the action.

29th August 2016, 03:59 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Not quite Charles. To cut with a pedang is "medhang". To chop is "marang", and the chopping can be with a knife or other chopper, but "marang" comes from "parang", thus a parang is a chopper, but a knife or sword can be a parang, depending on how it is used, and a parang can be a sword (pedang) depending on how it is used. So if you "medhang" with a parang, during the course of that action, the parang becomes a pedang. In Javanese a golok can be a dagger, in BI it is a something like a machete, and in current common usage I believe most Javanese would call a short dagger that can be used for chopping, a golok. To slash with a klewang is "nglewang". In Jawa/Bali/Madura it is not just a matter of looking up the form and name in book, or going to a dictionary and looking for the equivalent of sword. To use a language, and this includes words from a language we need to be able to think as the native speakers of that language think. I've gone on record previously about the name game, so I will not now say any more, except that this "correct name " thing is not as easy as it might appear, at least not with weapons from Indonesia.

29th August 2016, 05:01 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is very funny: read post #152 at the Shashka topic. Virtually identical info regarding North Caucasian languages and the Western propensity to mislabel Eastern weapons because of their ignorance of local linguistical nuances:-)))

29th August 2016, 12:36 PM	#12
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,794	Beautiful pedang!

29th August 2016, 09:36 PM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Alan, "parang" in Bahasa Indonesian, which is a cutting implement, may be related to the word "parang" in a sister language, Tagalog, which means "field". The connection of cutting a field with a cutting implement. I find etymology fascinating.

30th August 2016, 01:23 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Maybe, but the same word "parang" has two entirely separate meanings in Javanese:- a chopper, cleaver or knife a cliff. It is the name of a well known batik motif, where the motif supposedly represents a ruined cliff:- "parang rusak". A lot of languages all across SE Asia have similarities, there is a good reference chart in Raffles that sets out in matrixical form words from various languages, you can read across the page and see the commonality. This same commonality can be found in Malay and in the Polynesian languages, as well as some words in common usage in the Aboriginal languages of Northern Australia. In fact I have read that if you can understand Malay (ie, BI) you can more or less follow Maori. The Northern Australian Aboriginals picked up the words from visiting fishermen from islands in the Archipelago, principally from Sulawesi, which in effect means Bugis, and there are acknowledged family links between people in Sulawesi and Aboriginal people in Northern Australia. In Bahasa Indonesia we find a multitude of words that come from European languages, principally Portuguese, Dutch and English.