18th Century Zoomporhic Shamshir

vilhelmsson · 20th October 2019, 11:08 PM

Hello,

I picked up this sword recently. It was offered as an 18th century Indian shamshir.

I wanted to solicit the thoughts of the forum about what it's purpose is, and if anyone was familiar with the very faded mark on the blade? And is 18th century right?

The iron work on the elephant is somewhat rudimentary. It feels small in the hand and the handle is somewhat small. At first, I thought it might be a child's sword. But the actual size of the blade is similar in size to a very serious tulwar that I have, though the tulwar has the more substantial feel of a weapon.

I wonder if it might be a piece meant for the 18th century domestic tourist market, maybe marketed to Hindu pilgrims?

I have not examined the organic material in the pommel under a microscope, but it was marketed as bone.

ariel · 21st October 2019, 12:40 AM

The blade looks wootz-y to me, and there is no Indian ricasso: Persian?

Polish a small area and etch it gently. Shiva and Ahuramazda willing you might be pleasantly surprised.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st October 2019, 06:53 AM

It looks suspiciously like a wootz blade in my view...

In addition the cartouche now almost completely obliterated looks like an Assad Ullah style for which you may like to look at http://auctionsimperial.com/om-the-p...f-assad-allah/

I find the ears of the elephant a bit strange as they look likely to cut into the sword hand..and the finials look peculiar since they appear to be inverted. Odd that the hilt has a chunk of bone added ...I wonder is this hilt largely added to and played with...?

vilhelmsson · 21st October 2019, 10:39 PM

Ariel and Ibrahiim,

You both have a good eye, or at least good intuition. I received a few things after this that I was a bit more excited about, and I forgot about my initial thoughts on looking at it. The blade does look like on wootz on close examination in some parts.

I think I'll have to polish and etch a small portion, soon.

Assad Ullah style might be too optimistic, and this cartouche seems to be more angular and less round than Assad Ullah's.

The ears are not uncomfortable in the hand; they taper well. I didn't provide a good shot of the finials, but I think they are supposed to look like the bottom half of an elephant's open mouth. At least that was my impression when I saw them in person. The workmanship on the hilt is not going to make it into the next edition of Hindu Arms and Ritual!

I think I need to take another look at how the hilt is assembled and to what extent it is original.

mariusgmioc · 21st October 2019, 11:10 PM

Indian shamshir blades rarely present the characteristic Indian ricasso. That is a characteristic of the tulwar blades. However, this blade a ppears to have a rudimentary Indian ricasso.

In my oppinion this is an Indian, not Persian blade.

Why?! It is wider at the ricasso than the typical Persian blade.
Connected to the wider ricasso is the more tapering of the blade towards the tip.

So, to my eyes, this looks like a transition blade between a classic shamshir shape and that of a tulwar.

Also the location of the inscriptions appears to be lower, more towards the tip, and is not of typical Persian shape.

With regards to the hilt, I believe it to be a more recent, very poor, touristy, replacement. Late 19th century, but most likely early 20th...

Why?! The blade is not hilted properly. The ricasso does not go up inside the hilt, but it ends up right before the hilt, meaning that at the joint zone the blade is only supported by the narrow tang and very prone to breakage. So, in the condition it is fit now, this blade cannot serve as a fighting weapon.

My two cents...

vilhelmsson · 21st October 2019, 11:42 PM

Thank you Marius. And I have your etching guide bookmarked.

I must shamefully admit that the poor hilt is what caught my touristy eye

Do you have any thoughts on whether it was intended for domestic Indian tourists versus international tourists? I think we're far enough removed from the early 20th century that this isn't self-evident from it being offered for auction in Europe.

For the price I paid, I'm satisfied with an older, wootzy blade and a late kitschy (at best) hilt.

Your two cents shall be deposited in an interest bearing account of knowledge! In the meantime, I will try not to get into any sword fights. With this sword.

mariusgmioc · 22nd October 2019, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vilhelmsson

Thank you Marius. And I have your etching guide bookmarked.

I must shamefully admit that the poor hilt is what caught my touristy eye

Do you have any thoughts on whether it was intended for domestic Indian tourists versus international tourists? I think we're far enough removed from the early 20th century that this isn't self-evident from it being offered for auction in Europe.

For the price I paid, I'm satisfied with an older, wootzy blade and a late kitschy (at best) hilt.

Your two cents shall be deposited in an interest bearing account of knowledge! In the meantime, I will try not to get into any sword fights. With this sword.

When I said "touristy" I didn't necessarilly mean for tourists. What I had in mind was a lower quality of workmanship hilt that is not suitable for real use. Whether it was meant for international collectors or just to make the sword look complete for display in an Indian house, I cannot say.

Kubur · 22nd October 2019, 08:31 AM

i don't like to be negative with any forum member.
But here there is no discussion, the hilt is a touristic late stuff.
With the ears nailed and the trump in the air!
With the camel bone i would be tempted to put this art work in the chicken street of Kabul. The blade looks good.
If the blade is good, throw the hilt to the bin and buy a nice tulwar or pulwar hilt...

mahratt · 22nd October 2019, 08:53 AM

This shamshir has been put up at one famous auction several times over the past two or three years

I think it caused potential buyers a lot of questions if they didn’t buy it for a long time ....

mariusgmioc · 22nd October 2019, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

I think it caused potential buyers a lot of questions if they didn’t buy it for a long time ....

Not surprisingly!

From your photos, it appears that the blade has indeed some rudimentary Indian ricasso.

ariel · 22nd October 2019, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

.
.... trump in the air!

Only when he is flying Airforce 1:-)

The interesting and potentially valuable part is the blade.
If it is wootz-y, then the money was well spent.
The handle could have been attached yesterday or 200 years ago: they were easy to change and virtually all really old Indian swords are on their second or fourth.

vilhelmsson · 22nd October 2019, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

i don't like to be negative with any forum member.
But here there is no discussion, the hilt is a touristic late stuff.
With the ears nailed and the trump in the air!
With the camel bone i would be tempted to put this art work in the chicken street of Kabul. The blade looks good.
If the blade is good, throw the hilt to the bin and buy a nice tulwar or pulwar hilt...

Well, you guys know what they say about a fool and his money

The challenge for me, of course, is that it's a lot easier to learn about good stuff in books than the cheap looking stuff that would never make it into the books and which is easier to access. The forums are a better place to learn why some inexpensive stuff is crap and why other inexpensive stuff has some redeemable qualities, than spending years accumulating crap before buying something nice and realizing that you've only spent years collecting garbage.

ariel · 22nd October 2019, 09:49 PM

Do not beat yourself up: everybody here went thru the same period. We all have our " walls of shame" ( more precisely boxes in dark rooms).
View it as a price of learning.
On top of that, if the blade is wootz, you got a winner. Changing the handle is simple, and a wootz pulwar will look gorgeous. Locals did it all the time, so you will continue the time-honored tradition:-)

ALEX · 23rd October 2019, 06:57 AM

Vilhelmsson, you do not have to change the handle. Some people are too quick posing their opinions as ultimate guides for everyone to follow. This is quite inconsiderate because it does not regard individual tastes, stages and levels of collecting and collections. Some advice given are like: "your car is not a Ferrari, so throw it away and change to something else".

You liked this sword and the hilt in particular, and used your judgment in doing so. This is nothing to be ashamed of or discarding into the "wall of shame"... unless you were after an early Mughal masterpiece to complete a missing spot in your almost-complete early Mughal masterpieces collection.

Overall, this is a genuine antique sword. Yes, the handle is crudely made in comparison, but this does not imply it must be discarded.

As for wootz, you may test-etch a small portion of the blade without polishing it, good wootz will reveal itself, although I do not think it is wootz based on the photos. Once you know for sure, you may polish the whole blade and etch it to make it cleaner and uniform.

Good luck!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd October 2019, 10:23 AM

I think it likely that some play has been placed in the production of the pommel at #1 here at thread...
… It could be a walking stick head reformed onto this hilt for example and I suspect the ring of bone half way up the grip is also added.
As others have said this doesn't mean the whole thing is fiddled with as there may be a good blade here...I place a highly ornate elephant hilted tulvar and a contemporary dagger and an elephant walking stick head...

ariel · 23rd October 2019, 01:10 PM

Alex is right: you may change the handle only if you absolutely hate the current one. Otherwise, leave it as is. Original status should be preserved as much as possible.
My only hesitation is the bone : it looks very new. Then , switching an ugly new one to a good looking old one is legitimate, IMHO.

Addendum: you do not need a microscope to identify long bone. There are slightly elongated black “spots” all over. These are fragments of blood vessels supplying the bone: they traverse through the periosteum, a thin connective tissue membrane surrounding the outer surface of the bone proper.

21st October 2019, 12:40 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The blade looks wootz-y to me, and there is no Indian ricasso: Persian? Polish a small area and etch it gently. Shiva and Ahuramazda willing you might be pleasantly surprised. Last edited by ariel; 21st October 2019 at 03:55 AM.

21st October 2019, 06:53 AM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	It looks suspiciously like a wootz blade in my view... In addition the cartouche now almost completely obliterated looks like an Assad Ullah style for which you may like to look at http://auctionsimperial.com/om-the-p...f-assad-allah/ I find the ears of the elephant a bit strange as they look likely to cut into the sword hand..and the finials look peculiar since they appear to be inverted. Odd that the hilt has a chunk of bone added ...I wonder is this hilt largely added to and played with...? Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 21st October 2019 at 10:47 AM.

21st October 2019, 11:10 PM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Indian shamshir blades rarely present the characteristic Indian ricasso. That is a characteristic of the tulwar blades. However, this blade a ppears to have a rudimentary Indian ricasso. In my oppinion this is an Indian, not Persian blade. Why?! It is wider at the ricasso than the typical Persian blade. Connected to the wider ricasso is the more tapering of the blade towards the tip. So, to my eyes, this looks like a transition blade between a classic shamshir shape and that of a tulwar. Also the location of the inscriptions appears to be lower, more towards the tip, and is not of typical Persian shape. With regards to the hilt, I believe it to be a more recent, very poor, touristy, replacement. Late 19th century, but most likely early 20th... Why?! The blade is not hilted properly. The ricasso does not go up inside the hilt, but it ends up right before the hilt, meaning that at the joint zone the blade is only supported by the narrow tang and very prone to breakage. So, in the condition it is fit now, this blade cannot serve as a fighting weapon. My two cents... Last edited by mariusgmioc; 21st October 2019 at 11:25 PM.

22nd October 2019, 08:53 AM	#9
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	This shamshir has been put up at one famous auction several times over the past two or three years I think it caused potential buyers a lot of questions if they didn’t buy it for a long time .... Attached Images

23rd October 2019, 10:23 AM	#15
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I think it likely that some play has been placed in the production of the pommel at #1 here at thread... … It could be a walking stick head reformed onto this hilt for example and I suspect the ring of bone half way up the grip is also added. As others have said this doesn't mean the whole thing is fiddled with as there may be a good blade here...I place a highly ornate elephant hilted tulvar and a contemporary dagger and an elephant walking stick head... Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 23rd October 2019 at 10:35 AM.

20th October 2019, 11:08 PM	#1
vilhelmsson Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Bay Area Posts: 57	18th Century Zoomporhic Shamshir Hello, I picked up this sword recently. It was offered as an 18th century Indian shamshir. I wanted to solicit the thoughts of the forum about what it's purpose is, and if anyone was familiar with the very faded mark on the blade? And is 18th century right? The iron work on the elephant is somewhat rudimentary. It feels small in the hand and the handle is somewhat small. At first, I thought it might be a child's sword. But the actual size of the blade is similar in size to a very serious tulwar that I have, though the tulwar has the more substantial feel of a weapon. I wonder if it might be a piece meant for the 18th century domestic tourist market, maybe marketed to Hindu pilgrims? I have not examined the organic material in the pommel under a microscope, but it was marketed as bone. Attached Images

21st October 2019, 10:39 PM	#4
vilhelmsson Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Bay Area Posts: 57	Ariel and Ibrahiim, You both have a good eye, or at least good intuition. I received a few things after this that I was a bit more excited about, and I forgot about my initial thoughts on looking at it. The blade does look like on wootz on close examination in some parts. I think I'll have to polish and etch a small portion, soon. Assad Ullah style might be too optimistic, and this cartouche seems to be more angular and less round than Assad Ullah's. The ears are not uncomfortable in the hand; they taper well. I didn't provide a good shot of the finials, but I think they are supposed to look like the bottom half of an elephant's open mouth. At least that was my impression when I saw them in person. The workmanship on the hilt is not going to make it into the next edition of Hindu Arms and Ritual! I think I need to take another look at how the hilt is assembled and to what extent it is original.

21st October 2019, 11:42 PM	#6
vilhelmsson Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Bay Area Posts: 57	Thank you Marius. And I have your etching guide bookmarked. I must shamefully admit that the poor hilt is what caught my touristy eye Do you have any thoughts on whether it was intended for domestic Indian tourists versus international tourists? I think we're far enough removed from the early 20th century that this isn't self-evident from it being offered for auction in Europe. For the price I paid, I'm satisfied with an older, wootzy blade and a late kitschy (at best) hilt. Your two cents shall be deposited in an interest bearing account of knowledge! In the meantime, I will try not to get into any sword fights. With this sword.

22nd October 2019, 08:31 AM	#8
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	i don't like to be negative with any forum member. But here there is no discussion, the hilt is a touristic late stuff. With the ears nailed and the trump in the air! With the camel bone i would be tempted to put this art work in the chicken street of Kabul. The blade looks good. If the blade is good, throw the hilt to the bin and buy a nice tulwar or pulwar hilt...

22nd October 2019, 09:49 PM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Do not beat yourself up: everybody here went thru the same period. We all have our " walls of shame" ( more precisely boxes in dark rooms). View it as a price of learning. On top of that, if the blade is wootz, you got a winner. Changing the handle is simple, and a wootz pulwar will look gorgeous. Locals did it all the time, so you will continue the time-honored tradition:-)

23rd October 2019, 06:57 AM	#14
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Vilhelmsson, you do not have to change the handle. Some people are too quick posing their opinions as ultimate guides for everyone to follow. This is quite inconsiderate because it does not regard individual tastes, stages and levels of collecting and collections. Some advice given are like: "your car is not a Ferrari, so throw it away and change to something else". You liked this sword and the hilt in particular, and used your judgment in doing so. This is nothing to be ashamed of or discarding into the "wall of shame"... unless you were after an early Mughal masterpiece to complete a missing spot in your almost-complete early Mughal masterpieces collection. Overall, this is a genuine antique sword. Yes, the handle is crudely made in comparison, but this does not imply it must be discarded. As for wootz, you may test-etch a small portion of the blade without polishing it, good wootz will reveal itself, although I do not think it is wootz based on the photos. Once you know for sure, you may polish the whole blade and etch it to make it cleaner and uniform. Good luck!

23rd October 2019, 01:10 PM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Alex is right: you may change the handle only if you absolutely hate the current one. Otherwise, leave it as is. Original status should be preserved as much as possible. My only hesitation is the bone : it looks very new. Then , switching an ugly new one to a good looking old one is legitimate, IMHO. Addendum: you do not need a microscope to identify long bone. There are slightly elongated black “spots” all over. These are fragments of blood vessels supplying the bone: they traverse through the periosteum, a thin connective tissue membrane surrounding the outer surface of the bone proper. Last edited by ariel; 23rd October 2019 at 04:13 PM.