Molar hilt, sumatran keris for comments

Gustav · 2nd August 2009, 10:23 PM

Dear All,

I know, you don't like molar hilts. The carving is crude, but the material sometimes interesting. Material of this one is not bad exposed (it has even an eye!). This is, why I own this strange combo.

The blade seems to be recently made (?), has a very smooth surface and nice song. Only the pesi looks a little bit older

The sheath is, of course, not original.

I apologise for the quality of pictures, I have done this for the first time myself.

Every comment is absolutely welcome, please, don't hesitate!

Gustav · 2nd August 2009, 10:33 PM

The pictures.

Battara · 2nd August 2009, 11:06 PM

I like molar hilts.

Anyway, the reason the carvings seem cruder is that it is a very difficult material to carve. Needs an expert touch.

Molar has a history in Indonesia and even the Philippines as being from "dragons tooth" and has talismanic and magical properties.

Closeups of the hilt would be nice.

Marcokeris · 2nd August 2009, 11:40 PM

Gustav
IMO a perfect combination

Also sarong is OK
Why the blade is new?? (...maybe ...because there is no contrast between the colour of steel and iron??)

Gustav · 3rd August 2009, 12:25 AM

Some more pics. Tomorrow I will try to take some close-ups.

Gustav · 3rd August 2009, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Gustav
IMO a perfect combination

Also sarong is OK
Why the blade is new?? (...maybe ...because there is no contrast between the colour of steel and iron??)

Thank you very much, Marcokeris!

I have very little experience. When I see keris at Malay Art Gallery page or on some great threads here, there is the wear out on the edges etc. This blade seems to be much to perfect.

Only when I see the pesi, it seems to have some age... I really don't know.

But anyway, I don't like so much this high contrasting stain on a non javanese blade (if it isn't Madurese in this case, of course

)

Any comments, please...

The blade is 32,6 cm (12,83 inches), pesi 5,3 (2,09).

A. G. Maisey · 3rd August 2009, 12:59 AM

I do not necessarily dislike geraham hilts.

They can be either good or bad, crude or refined. It is almost impossible to find a finely worked Javanese planar geraham hilt, but Bugis and Palembang styles are often quite finely worked. A couple of years ago I was offered two Bugis ones, that were as good as anything I have seen in ivory, regretably they were far too expensive, so I did not buy them.

The pic is of a geraham hilt on an odd little weapon in the Musium Radya Pustaka in Solo, Jawa Tengah. I've coveted this hilt since the first time I saw it more than 30 years ago.

Incidentally, that is not a new, or even recent, blade.

Sajen · 3rd August 2009, 01:10 AM

Hi Gustav,

I also like molar hilts when they finely worked and this one seems from not bad quality. I also would like to see some closeups from the hilt. The blade don't look recent to my eyes and the pamor is very nice.

sajen

David · 3rd August 2009, 01:44 AM

Gustav, i am not sure where you got the idea that no one here likes this material for hilts. I think i have expressed in the past that i thought molar was a difficult material to render fine detail in, but i have seen many more that one example that i thought desirable.
I also agree with Alan that this is not a recent keris and is a fine example at that.

Gustav · 3rd August 2009, 02:20 PM

Thank you all very much for the comments!

For the keris: I have one unpleasant characteristic - I am very critical to the things I really like, for which I am not indifferent. I am very glad to read, the blade can have some age.

Here the close ups of hilt and one, in which you can see the surface of the blade close to real appearance in life.

Gustav · 3rd August 2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I do not necessarily dislike geraham hilts.

They can be either good or bad, crude or refined. It is almost impossible to find a finely worked Javanese planar geraham hilt, but Bugis and Palembang styles are often quite finely worked. A couple of years ago I was offered two Bugis ones, that were as good as anything I have seen in ivory, regretably they were far too expensive, so I did not buy them.

The pic is of a geraham hilt on an odd little weapon in the Musium Radya Pustaka in Solo, Jawa Tengah. I've coveted this hilt since the first time I saw it more than 30 years ago.

Incidentally, that is not a new, or even recent, blade.

Dear Alan,

at the place, where my hilt has an eye, the hilt from museum shows a whole inscription!

A very interesting knife with very nice sheath. Funny to see these sort of tribal-art figures on the knife, the wayang (?) figure on the sheath and Jawa Demam as hilt, with javanese mendak.

And also, how similar the small figure on the knife and Jawa Demam are.

Rick · 3rd August 2009, 04:48 PM

Very nice keris Gustav .
Your photography is quite acceptable too .

When I view hilts of this material I find it very hard to concentrate on the form; the material really distracts my eye .

I do like the stuff though .

lemmythesmith · 3rd August 2009, 11:30 PM

Hi all, that's a nice keris Gustav, I really like it. Does anyone know if these hilts were ever made of mammoth molar or are they of elephant molar only?

Gustav · 3rd August 2009, 11:57 PM

Rick,

thank you for the compliment, but you can not imagine, how many pictures I have deleted, and even now, sharp is none of them

.

About molar:

Often, when material itself has such a level of expression, elaborate details can be even disturbing.

I think, more then in carving of some other material, the craftsmen must feel and bring out in the most atractive way the natural qualities of molar. I guess, belief of a magic quality appears, when the craftsmen must work with a "predictated" material, that already has its own expression. A little bit similar feeling appears in carved wood hilts with pelet (most of them probably kendhit).

(But this are only my thoughts, without any importance.)

A. G. Maisey · 4th August 2009, 12:01 AM

Yes, I've seen and been offered both hilts and scabbards made of fossilised material.But it is not a good choice. The material itself is not stable and over time tends to crack and crumble.

In Central Jawa the fossil material on the market comes from the fossil beds at Sangiran. In Bali the fossil ivory and geraham is imported from Alaska.

Gustav · 4th August 2009, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemmythesmith

Hi all, that's a nice keris Gustav, I really like it. Does anyone know if these hilts were ever made of mammoth molar or are they of elephant molar only?

Thank you very much, Lemmythesmith.

Another question: knows anybody, which is the origin of the different colours of kinds of molar (sometimes red, yellow, orange)? Can it be the age? Is there a knowledge, from where the certain molar with some concrete colour comes?

(Oh, I see Alan has give an answer for a part of my question...)

Rick · 4th August 2009, 12:14 AM

This is a petrified material; is it not ?

edit
*Sorry, I missed Alan's post on this .

Wouldn't the color be determined by the mineral content of the strata it was buried in ?

Sajen · 6th August 2009, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

This is a petrified material; is it not ?

edit
*Sorry, I missed Alan's post on this .

Wouldn't the color be determined by the mineral content of the strata it was buried in ?

Yes Rick,

it's like you write, the minerals in the ground give the different colours.

Here again my molar hilt.

Regards,

sajen

Rick · 6th August 2009, 08:24 PM

A fine example of the carver's art, Sajen .
Thanks for sharing .

Gustav · 6th August 2009, 10:10 PM

Yes, it is beautiful, Sajen

I regarded that thread many, many times.

Sajen · 7th August 2009, 12:09 AM

Thank you Rick and Gustav. What catch my eyes: all three hilts here shown in this thread have a similar colour, while many warangkas and hilts offered in e-bay more blond. They worked maybe from the molar Mr. Maisey told.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 7th August 2009, 12:50 AM

Here is a other molar hilt from my collection, many more crudely worked.

A. G. Maisey · 9th August 2009, 03:33 PM

This is a pic of a piece of the raw material.

Top and bottom view of a piece of fossilised tooth from the Sangiran fossil beds in Central Jawa.

Rick · 9th August 2009, 04:09 PM

Thanks for showing this material in it's natural state Alan .

lemmythesmith · 9th August 2009, 07:27 PM

Here's a section through a mammoth molar, unfortunately it's a North Sea fossil so it's no good for hilts-parts of the tooth go kinda chalky (and it falls to pieces)

Marcokeris · 9th August 2009, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemmythesmith

Here's a section through a mammoth molar, unfortunately it's a North Sea fossil so it's no good for hilts-parts of the tooth go kinda chalky (and it falls to pieces)

Hallo Lemmythesmith
The colour of this Yogya hit is the same.

Marcokeris · 9th August 2009, 10:14 PM

The colour of these are different (mammuth?, elephant?, diiferent age?, different food?)

VANDOO · 10th August 2009, 12:49 AM

IF YOU SEARCH IN THE ARCHIVES THERE IS SOME INFORMATION THAT COULD BE LINKED HERE. DON'T KNOW HOW TO LINK IT UNFORTUNATELY.

POSTED 8-27-2003, BY VANDOO, FOSSIL ELEPHANT TEETH

THE PATTERN YOU GET FROM THESE CAN BE CONTROLLED BY THE DIRECTION THE TOOTH IS CUT INTO AND OFTEN A FOUR SIDED PIECE WILL HAVE A DIFFERENT PATTERN ON EACH SIDE AND TWO MORE AT THE TOP AND BOTTOM. THE MATERIAL FROM JAVA SEEMS TO BE A GOOD STURDY MATERIAL UNLIKE WHAT IS FOUND IN MANY OTHER PLACES IN THE WORLD.
PERSONALLY I LIKE THE MATERIAL BUT HATE TO THINK OF CUTTING UP A COMPLETE SPECIMIN TO MAKE ANYTHING OUT OF IT.

2nd August 2009, 10:23 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Molar hilt, sumatran keris for comments Dear All, I know, you don't like molar hilts. The carving is crude, but the material sometimes interesting. Material of this one is not bad exposed (it has even an eye!). This is, why I own this strange combo. The blade seems to be recently made (?), has a very smooth surface and nice song. Only the pesi looks a little bit older The sheath is, of course, not original. I apologise for the quality of pictures, I have done this for the first time myself. Every comment is absolutely welcome, please, don't hesitate! Last edited by Gustav; 2nd August 2009 at 11:07 PM.

2nd August 2009, 10:33 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Pictures The pictures. Attached Images

3rd August 2009, 12:25 AM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Some more pics. Tomorrow I will try to take some close-ups. Attached Images

3rd August 2009, 12:59 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	I do not necessarily dislike geraham hilts. They can be either good or bad, crude or refined. It is almost impossible to find a finely worked Javanese planar geraham hilt, but Bugis and Palembang styles are often quite finely worked. A couple of years ago I was offered two Bugis ones, that were as good as anything I have seen in ivory, regretably they were far too expensive, so I did not buy them. The pic is of a geraham hilt on an odd little weapon in the Musium Radya Pustaka in Solo, Jawa Tengah. I've coveted this hilt since the first time I saw it more than 30 years ago. Incidentally, that is not a new, or even recent, blade. Attached Images

3rd August 2009, 02:20 PM	#10
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Thank you all very much for the comments! For the keris: I have one unpleasant characteristic - I am very critical to the things I really like, for which I am not indifferent. I am very glad to read, the blade can have some age. Here the close ups of hilt and one, in which you can see the surface of the blade close to real appearance in life. Attached Images

2nd August 2009, 11:06 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	I like molar hilts. Anyway, the reason the carvings seem cruder is that it is a very difficult material to carve. Needs an expert touch. Molar has a history in Indonesia and even the Philippines as being from "dragons tooth" and has talismanic and magical properties. Closeups of the hilt would be nice.

2nd August 2009, 11:40 PM	#4
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Gustav IMO a perfect combination Also sarong is OK Why the blade is new?? (...maybe ...because there is no contrast between the colour of steel and iron??)

3rd August 2009, 01:10 AM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,797	Hi Gustav, I also like molar hilts when they finely worked and this one seems from not bad quality. I also would like to see some closeups from the hilt. The blade don't look recent to my eyes and the pamor is very nice. sajen

3rd August 2009, 01:44 AM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	Gustav, i am not sure where you got the idea that no one here likes this material for hilts. I think i have expressed in the past that i thought molar was a difficult material to render fine detail in, but i have seen many more that one example that i thought desirable. I also agree with Alan that this is not a recent keris and is a fine example at that.

3rd August 2009, 04:48 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Very nice keris Gustav . Your photography is quite acceptable too . When I view hilts of this material I find it very hard to concentrate on the form; the material really distracts my eye . I do like the stuff though .

3rd August 2009, 11:30 PM	#13
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi all, that's a nice keris Gustav, I really like it. Does anyone know if these hilts were ever made of mammoth molar or are they of elephant molar only?

3rd August 2009, 11:57 PM	#14
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Rick, thank you for the compliment, but you can not imagine, how many pictures I have deleted, and even now, sharp is none of them . About molar: Often, when material itself has such a level of expression, elaborate details can be even disturbing. I think, more then in carving of some other material, the craftsmen must feel and bring out in the most atractive way the natural qualities of molar. I guess, belief of a magic quality appears, when the craftsmen must work with a "predictated" material, that already has its own expression. A little bit similar feeling appears in carved wood hilts with pelet (most of them probably kendhit). (But this are only my thoughts, without any importance.)

4th August 2009, 12:01 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	Yes, I've seen and been offered both hilts and scabbards made of fossilised material.But it is not a good choice. The material itself is not stable and over time tends to crack and crumble. In Central Jawa the fossil material on the market comes from the fossil beds at Sangiran. In Bali the fossil ivory and geraham is imported from Alaska.

4th August 2009, 12:14 AM	#17
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	This is a petrified material; is it not ? edit Sorry, I missed Alan's post on this . Wouldn't the color be determined by the mineral content of the strata it was buried in ? Last edited by Rick; 4th August 2009 at 01:13 AM. Reason: Addendum*

6th August 2009, 08:24 PM	#19
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	A fine example of the carver's art, Sajen . Thanks for sharing .

6th August 2009, 10:10 PM	#20
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Yes, it is beautiful, Sajen I regarded that thread many, many times.

7th August 2009, 12:09 AM	#21
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,797	Thank you Rick and Gustav. What catch my eyes: all three hilts here shown in this thread have a similar colour, while many warangkas and hilts offered in e-bay more blond. They worked maybe from the molar Mr. Maisey told. Regards, Detlef

7th August 2009, 12:50 AM	#22
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,797	Here is a other molar hilt from my collection, many more crudely worked. Attached Images

9th August 2009, 03:33 PM	#23
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	This is a pic of a piece of the raw material. Top and bottom view of a piece of fossilised tooth from the Sangiran fossil beds in Central Jawa. Attached Images

9th August 2009, 04:09 PM	#24
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Thanks for showing this material in it's natural state Alan .

9th August 2009, 07:27 PM	#25
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Here's a section through a mammoth molar, unfortunately it's a North Sea fossil so it's no good for hilts-parts of the tooth go kinda chalky (and it falls to pieces) Attached Images

9th August 2009, 10:14 PM	#27
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	The colour of these are different (mammuth?, elephant?, diiferent age?, different food?) Attached Images

10th August 2009, 12:49 AM	#28
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IF YOU SEARCH IN THE ARCHIVES THERE IS SOME INFORMATION THAT COULD BE LINKED HERE. DON'T KNOW HOW TO LINK IT UNFORTUNATELY. POSTED 8-27-2003, BY VANDOO, FOSSIL ELEPHANT TEETH THE PATTERN YOU GET FROM THESE CAN BE CONTROLLED BY THE DIRECTION THE TOOTH IS CUT INTO AND OFTEN A FOUR SIDED PIECE WILL HAVE A DIFFERENT PATTERN ON EACH SIDE AND TWO MORE AT THE TOP AND BOTTOM. THE MATERIAL FROM JAVA SEEMS TO BE A GOOD STURDY MATERIAL UNLIKE WHAT IS FOUND IN MANY OTHER PLACES IN THE WORLD. PERSONALLY I LIKE THE MATERIAL BUT HATE TO THINK OF CUTTING UP A COMPLETE SPECIMIN TO MAKE ANYTHING OUT OF IT.