What is the equivalent of "Wahyu" in other cultures?

silkreeler · 28th October 2009, 10:49 AM

Hi Everyone,

I just learned from some articles that some Javanese believe certain krisses carry with them "wahyu" or divine mandate (loosely translated). Feel free to correct me if I perceive this wrong. Roughly it's like this: A kris or tombak can carry with it some divine (or otherwordly) will to perform certain "mission" for a possessing individual or a society in general.

I have heard of certain krisses in Bali being displayed in some temples and people pray - either to the krisses or simply in front of them. I don't know precisely because I don't practice such belief system. The individual or institution in charge of safekeeping these tosan aji's often say that the the objects (or rather their inhabitants) were assigned the task of maintaining the well being of a specific community, say Banjar X. Now sometimes Banjar Y would come over and borrow the pusaka for a while due to a specific need, and presumably they would return the objects later (they better do - Banjar fights occasionally happen here

). Again, please state if you have different opinions - I am merely repeating what a friend said.

Back to my question - are there similar phenomenon in other cultures? To my extent of knowledge, there are no specific temple in China in which a jian or dao is displayed (or kept in a certain sanctuary), given a name, and being told, 'hey you, you are the protector or caretaker of such and such village". I heard that the Japanese kept certain swords in shrines, but I'm not sure if they have similar belief systems regarding the spirits in the sword and their roles.

What do you guys think?

KuKulzA28 · 28th October 2009, 05:21 PM

I think in Tibet, weapons were traditionally stockpiled in Buddhist temples and had some significance. I've also heard that in India, weapons can be greatly revered in religious settings, from the Sikhs sanctifying blades and practicing chatka on goats to Tamils revering temple-swords dedicated to Kali... In Chinese tradition, there were swords whose purpose was the kill/exorcise evil spirits and demons, but whether these had a entity within themselves and regarded as individuals is hard to say - I think not. I have also heard of the Japanese thing, keeping huge O-tachi in Shinto shrines... but again, I don't know much... but perhaps this can help spur some discussion.

David · 28th October 2009, 08:14 PM

I would love to see this discussed as it applies to the keris in Indonesian society, but if your question is about what other culture have such weapons or object that serve this purpose i really think it is a discussion best served in the main forum where you will have the input of collectors with knowledge of a much larger variance of traditions and cultures. We really try to keep our discussion here specifically focused on the keris.

kronckew · 28th October 2009, 08:17 PM

even us poor westerners have the tradition of magical weapons, special swords like excaliber, or swords forged by elves and dwarves with mystical powers. bronze swords, (cast in stone moulds - the origin of the 'sword in the stone'?) were ritually 'killed', broken or bent, as a sacrifice to the gods, and tossed into rivers and bogs...

fearn · 29th October 2009, 02:08 AM

For those of us geeks who grew up with heroic fantasy and Dungeons and Dragons, magic swords have intelligence an ego, and/or a mission are nothing new. Thinking about it, I wonder where those ideas came from?

Words like Geas, Weird, and Fate do come to mind as rough translations for Wahyu.

I'd also point out a rather odd book The Sword of Heaven (Amazon Link), which is the reportedly true story of a shinto priest's (successful?) attempt to save the world using a magic sword. Interesting story, whether you're a true believer or not. If this did happen, I hope that collectors leave the sword where it is!

Best,

F

Rick · 29th October 2009, 04:50 AM

It wasn't Frodo ?!?!

fearn · 29th October 2009, 06:44 AM

Read the book, Rick.

David · 30th October 2009, 03:19 PM

OK, i guess a magic sword must have been involved here somewhere because i could have sworn this was first posted in the keris forum, but i see no sign of it being moved from there to hear. Well if it has always been here ignore my last post.

David · 30th October 2009, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Words like Geas, Weird, and Fate do come to mind as rough translations for Wahyu.

Sorry Fearn, but these words don't seem to be very good or even rough translations of tghe purpose and intent of Wahyu.

Rick · 30th October 2009, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

OK, i guess a magic sword must have been involved here somewhere because i could have sworn this was first posted in the keris forum, but i see no sign of it being moved from there to hear. Well if it has always been here ignore my last post.

Heh, heh, heh ...

Magic fingers .

A question :
What is the difference in keris culture between Isi and Wahyu ?
Fill me in .

A. G. Maisey · 30th October 2009, 11:59 PM

Please forgive me Silkreeler, but I have read your initial post a number of times, and what you are saying about wahyu is very difficult for me to understand within the context of the keris.

In fact, I cannot recall ever having heard the word, wahyu , or the concept that is represented by wahyu, being associated with the keris.My understanding of the word and concept of "wahyu" is that it is a sign from heaven, most often in the form of a falling star, that the person indicated by this falling star is intended for high office. It is most frequently associated with the appointment of a village head, or with the taking of power by a new king.

Wahyu is a sign from heaven.

In Indonesian, as distinct from Javanese, wahyu has more of the meaning of a devine revelation, sometimes in the form of a vision.

The esoteric essences that are most usually associated with the keris are "isi" and "tuah".

These are not the same, or even similar.

The word "isi" means "contents".

When we speak of the isi of a keris we are referring to that essence that we believe is contained within the keris, it might be a (spiritual) tiger or some other animal, or it might be some spiritual being, either good or evil.

The word "tuah" has several associated meanings, but in the context of the keris the applicable meaning is probably best satisfied by "magic power". As an example, the tuah of the pamor batu lapak is believed to be that the owner of a keris with this pamor will accumulate many beautiful women and will live in a peaceful home. Truly magic power! Many beautiful women all living peacefully with one man as lord? Yeah---right!

So essentially isi applies to one specific individual keris. It might be the ugliest, most degraded and deformed keris of all time, but it could have as an isi an incredibly powerful spiritual force.

On the other hand, tuah is associated with some identifiable physical feature, very often a pamor motif, and this physical feature bestows good luck of a certain kind, because of the magic power associated with it.

But then there is the nature of the keris as pusaka.

The nature of the keris as pusaka is that it performs the role of binding all previous rightful custodians of that keris to the current custodian.It also binds the current custodian to all members of the current custodian's kin group. So it is a two dimensional binding force:- binding the past with the present and all applicable beings within the present.

In this context of keris as pusaka, the keris has become a materialisation of the Naga Basuki flowing through the cosmos and binding all dimensions as one.

For those who contribute to this belief system, this means that the current holder can call upon assistance of past custodians to help overcome a difficulty that is besetting current members of the kin group. This was the thought process of the ruler of Klungkung when he faced Dutch forces with only his pusaka keris, expecting the powers of the ancestors to obliterate the Dutch.

In the present day, where one banjar borrows a pusaka keris, it will be found that the members of both banjars will be associated with the same kin group.Thus, there is no tranfer of any magic power, but only a transfer of focus of the binding power of the Naga that links the new (borrowing) holder of the pusaka with the previous custodians, and whatever assistance these previous custodians may be able to render.

The concepts of tuah, isi, and pusaka are in no way related.

Silkreeler, I would very much like to read these articles that have provided you with the information that generated your initial post.

Are these articles available on line?

If not, can you tell us who wrote them, where were they published, and what is the writer's background?

Gustav · 31st October 2009, 12:54 AM

Dear All,

some citations from "Court arts from Indonesia":

In extended analyses of the nature of power, which pervades both the material and nonmaterial world in Indonesian belief, one aspect emerges clearly: power is paradoxical. The more it is exercised or needs to be demonstrated, the less effective it is; perceptibility diminishes its substance, knowledge of it implies control. Anderson's much-quoted definition is so apt that it bears repetition:

"Power exists, independent of its possible users. It is not a theoretical postulate but an existential reality. Power is that intangible, mysterious and divine energy which animates the universe... In Javanese traditional thinking there is no sharp division between organic and inorganic matter, for everything is sustained by the same inwisible power. This conception of the entire cosmos being suffused by formless, constantly creative energy provides the basic link between the "animism" of the Javanese willages and the high metaphysical pantheism of the urban centers"
(page 84)

The invincibility of and unquestionable rights to absolute royal power, familiar to students of the theory of the divine right of kings in the west, achieve their ultimate fulfillment in WAHYU. This sign of supernatural power was usually manifested by a glowing light and left the body on death. In some cases a princess with a "flaming womb" was perceiwed as the mother of kings; Ken Angrok, first king of Singasari (1222-27), was adwised to marry Ken Dedes because her flaming womb guaranteed a line of monarchs. In a second case, tailored to legitimize the power of the Dutch, a princess with a flaming womb was sold to a Dutchman whose descendents thereby acquired legitimacy in Java. In a different version, the WAHYU of Amangkurat II (1677-1703) was said at his death to have taken the form of a grain of light on his penis. Perceived and drawn in by his nephew Prince Puger, manifestation of the WAHYU and its posession eventually confirmed Puger as Pakubuwono I (1705-19) over the direct claims of his cousin, Amangkurat III (1703-05).

(page 88)

What interests me in this subject is, were it possible to see Keris as a form of a body?, which bears a power, I mean also possibly a human body?

A. G. Maisey · 31st October 2009, 02:11 AM

Yes, exactly Gustav, and this is the reason why the designated inheritor of a power wants to be present at the death of the person whose place he will take, so that the wahyu can go directly to him, and not be confused into going elsewhere. The wahyu is the sign, not the actual power that the sign indicates.

As I have already stated, I have not heard of the use of the concept of wahyu in association with keris.

The keris is not a form of a body.

Man is created by God, but the keris is created by man.

Those who believe in the powers that flow from a keris can hold the belief that those powers flow from various esoteric sources, but the keris is the focus of the powers and those powers cannot exist except in the presence of the suitable human agent.

The pusaka keris of a Balinese kin group has a relationship to people within that group, and to one person within that group in particular, but it cannot have that relationship to one who is not a member of the group.

For some people a particular keris may possess a certain isi, but for others the isi does not exist.

For some people a particular tuah may be an effective talisman, for other people it may have no effect, or worse, be a negative influence.

The concept of wahyu simply does not fit within the keris belief system.

mohd · 31st October 2009, 03:44 PM

As a Malay, it really confused me when the term wahyu is discussed in relation to Keris! Actually only isi and tuah which are relevance to keris belief system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For some people a particular keris may possess a certain isi, but for others the isi does not exist.

For some people a particular tuah may be an effective talisman, for other people it may have no effect, or worse, be a negative influence.

Yes! Isi keris here means a sort of a spiritual value or a spiritual power of the keris as per regarded by a person or a group of persons related to that particular keris. While tuah keris means more like a lucky charm again as per regarded by a person or a group of persons related to that particular keris.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The concept of wahyu simply does not fit within the keris belief system.

Again yes! Wahyu or wahy or wahi in Malay is originated from Arabic word and it is specifically carry a strict meaning in accordance to the Islamic Syriah. Here is the correct meaning of wahyu or wahy or wahi which is generally understand by Malay. In other words the term wahyu or wahy or wahi actually has nothing to do with keris at all.

Hope my explanations helps.

Mohd.

A. G. Maisey · 31st October 2009, 09:08 PM

Thanks for the link. Mohd.

I had suspected that wahyu might have come from Arabic, as it does not seem to appear in any form in Old Javanese. Knowing the original meaning and application is enlightening.

In fact, if we plough through enough dictionaries one of the meanings given to wahyu is "revelation".

However, the way in which I have learnt to use it, and heard it used, in Jawa is as an indicator from God of the designated authority of a person. Usually you will hear it in association with a ruler, but I have also heard it used in association with people of lesser authority.

Going back a very long time I misunderstood this word. I thought that it referred to the actual power itself, and although I had it explained to me, at that time my understanding of the Javanese thought process was inadequate to allow me to understand that it did not refer to power, but was an indicator of where the power should rest.

mohd · 1st November 2009, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silkreeler

I just learned from some articles that some Javanese believe certain krisses carry with them "wahyu" or divine mandate (loosely translated).

So actually the correct terms to be referred here are tuah keris and isi keris.

BTW, have any of you ever read or heard that certain people could really make a keris to stand staright on it's own tip without any support at all

I guess sometimes we might need to have a good chuckle

Mohd.

ausjulius · 3rd November 2009, 08:15 PM

silkreeler,
as asking if different cultures had or had customs akin to the malay peoples belifes regarding the kris and other weapons ,
i would say a close analog would be the polynesians and melanesians in the pacific,,
aspecialy the maori .
with some clubs being "famous" and being attractive enough to be the source of an attack in invasion from another tribe to capture the item for their own use.. the more note worthy and powerful worriors that the weapon killed or was used to sacrifice the more power it had , and also specific gods and p sprits and ancestors would be associtaed with it, the more people how owned it in the past also could increase its power , the weapon could also take on quests for gots or contain some powers the owner may not be totaly in control or awear of untill they were revealed ...

Atlantia · 3rd November 2009, 10:26 PM

I think that most if not all cultures have some 'history' or attributing a supernatural element to some weapons.
It's not suprising when you consider that often it is weapons technoogy that is at the cutting edge of technological development. It isn't hard to see why that fact and that these items take lives, would lead to them being viewed in such a way.

I can't think of any culture that doesn't have some kind of 'magic' weapons........
Perhaps not Fearns D&D +5 Sentient teleporter

But we all seem to have something worth mention.

Of course Excaliber is the most famous magical sword (probobly in the world) But when you think about it, Excalibers powers were not 'that' high on the scale of magical weapons.
After all it was the scabbard that made the wearer invulnerable. Excaliber was just super sharp, could cut anything and could only be broken by being used for dishonorable purpose.
Of course the 'sword in the stone' story has a 'lot' of similarites to Sigfried and 'Gram' being placed in a tree by Odin.
English swords are way harder, they go into stone!

So, how about the Japanese?
Muramasa's swords are cursed and could alegedly produce an effect somewhere between 'bloodlust' and demonic posession in the weilder.

Greek heroes could be given magic swords by the Gods.

Our french members will tell about the paladin Roland's sword Durendal I'm sure.

And if we are going to go the whole hog, then how about the magic weapons weilded by gods and demons?
Thors hammer Mjöllnir (doesn't he chip a shard off of the Rainbow bridge with it that becomes a dagger?), The Arch-Angel Michael slays (other) demons with a sword which is often flaming. Hephestus makes all manner of interesting things in his forge. Diana has a bow, Mars carries a spear, Freyr has a 'dancing' sword... the list is endless!

EDIT: Anyone like fiction? Fred Saberhagens 'books of swords' are pretty freaking sweet if you like your fictional magic weapon stories a bit more meaty that Moorcock.
'Farslayer howls around the world.. for thine heart which hast wronged me'

The guys great! Sci-fi (Berserker novels) to magic swords (Empire of the east onwards) get reading! Pulp fun.

David · 4th November 2009, 05:27 AM

I would like to point out that legends of Excalibur (originally Caledfwlch) and myths of Greek heroes receiving magic swords from the gods are just that, myths and legends, often written well after the supposed fact. The difference i see with keris and it's concepts of tuah and isi as well of concepts of royal pusaka and the abilities to disperse power and rights of rule through the passing of a specific blade to subservient leaders throughout one's kingdom was not myth or legend, but a living cultural reality. Whether or not one believes that these powers resided within the keris or not is irrelavent. That the people of that culture believed was all that was need to make it true for them. These practices and beliefs are well recorded and documented and can't really be compared with magic swords of the gods or heroes of fiction.
BTW, it seems that Excalibur and the Sword in the Stone were derived from separate myths that at some point became one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur

mohd · 4th November 2009, 12:36 PM

The most famous keris in Malay culture is Keris Taming Sari. Click here and here to know more about Keris Taming Sari

Mohd.

fearn · 4th November 2009, 06:22 PM

Hi David,

Generally, the sword in the stone and Excalibur were different weapons. Is Disney the one that conflated them?

There's an interesting dichotomy that I think the keris terminology has caught: there are magical swords that can do things normal blades cannot do. This is similar to the isi concept (If I understand tuah, it's more of a categorical property than an individual one). This is Excalibur, which was given by, and returned to, the Lady in the Lake.

Then there's the pusaka concept, which is a keris that (as I understand it, and leaving out the spiritual dimension) legitimizes power and relationships. This is more of the Sword in the Stone, which was thrust into the stone by Arthur's father, as a means for recognizing his rightful heir after his death. The concepts are not identical, but then, the concept of pusaka being tied into a weapon is not so common in European folklore, I think.

A. G. Maisey · 5th November 2009, 04:20 AM

The keris as pusaka cannot be divorced from its spiritual element.

The keris as pusaka does not only legitimise power or a relationship, and it need not necessarily do either.

The essential element of the keris as pusaka is its binding power.

David · 5th November 2009, 06:42 AM

Once again, Arthurian legend was pieced together from the writings of various medieval romantic writers weaving their tales many centuries after the historical Arthur may have lived. If the question here is are there similar cultural beliefs to those held in Indonesia in regards to the keris i think it is a hard stretch to relate these stories of the sword in the stone or Excalibur to the living, albiet fading, cultural traditions of the keris which are real, not legendary. I am speaking in regards to the beliefs of tuah and isi and the practice of passing down keris as pusaka to serve as a binding element to ones relations. These traditions were real and pervasive within this culture for centuries. Nothing like this existed in any European culture as far as i know, even if there was a weapon here or there that was deemed special or powerful.

David · 5th November 2009, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Generally, the sword in the stone and Excalibur were different weapons. Is Disney the one that conflated them?

Well Disney didn't help, but i think it was Malory in his Le Morte d'Arthur.

josh stout · 12th November 2009, 06:51 PM

This is an interesting discussion. I would like to contribute some stories I have heard about swords and powers/spirits from the Chinese Indonesian community.

My understanding of traditional Chinese sword culture is that a sword is potentially unlucky, due to the inherent power it represents. As a sword is used, its power increases, until some would not be willing to have an antique in their house because the power in it is too great and bad things could happen.

Used weapons in Tibetan culture are kept in an inner sanctuary to be used by guardian spirits in the fight against evil and for protecting the temple. I suspect this also places their power in a safe place to be used for good not evil.

In Chinese Indonesian culture the links to animistic practices are a bit stronger. When a new sword is acquired it must be cleaned, and then put on an alter to attract a good spirit. One offers flowers and incense to encourage a good spirit, or meat to encourage a powerful and potentially more dangerous spirit. Letting people of good will handle a sword without feelings of jealousy also encourages a good spirit. I suspect this is closely aligned with the concept of "isi" because there does not seem to be a direct connection between the quality of a blade and the spirit that can inhabit it. If the sword is a personal weapon, or a family heirloom, it is kept near the alter, usually to one side, but is not usually directly prayed to. I think keeping it near the alter makes it safer.

Particularly interesting is the idea that a sword would not necessarily have a spirit, but that it can acquire one. The spirit can be invited into a sword and change over time according to use and ritual practices.

"Temple swords" and "alter swords" are those specifically to be used in ritual practices and are not to be confused with weapons. They usually have magical incantations and or symbols on them and it is considered bad luck to practice sword dances or other weapon oriented activities with them. There is a practical side to this because the temple swords are often of low quality and may not even be steel, so practicing with them could indeed be dangerous. Nevertheless, once again we can see that the quality of a sword and the power of a spirit within it are not necessarily connected.

In Chinese culture swords should always be respected, never placed on the ground, and not neglected. The people I know from Indonesia sometimes say to clean them every full moon. On the other hand, swords are dangerous, potentially bad luck, and not revered as objects of worship. This often leads to the situation where a sword is placed high up and ignored as it slowly rusts in the high humidity.
Josh

A. G. Maisey · 12th November 2009, 10:42 PM

In Jawa people who identify themselves as Chinese , and who are identified by others as being a part of the Chinese community have absorbed a very large part of Javanese culture, which they tend to identify not as Javanese culture, but as their own culture. This applies to native born Javanese Chinese, most particularly to those who come from a family that has been in Jawa for a lengthy period of time.

Yes, some elements of original Chinese culture are in evidence, but there are beliefs and practices that are not Chinese, but rather Javanese, that the Chinese-Javanese ( and I guess, the Chinese-Indonesian) person will claim to be a part of Chinese culture that can be positively identified as being borrowed from Javanese or some other local culture ( in the case of Chinese -Indonesian).

This particularly applies to those Chinese communities that are located in the old seats of Javanese power, such as Surakarta and Jogjakarta. In these places it is often quite difficult to determine exactly where Javanese culture stops and Chinese culture starts. For example , the Chinese businessman and art connoisseur, Go Tik Swan, rose to an elevated position in the Karaton Surakarta with the designation of Panembahan Harjonegoro. In these old Karaton cities the Chinese and Javanese communities are so interwoven that it is difficult to view them as separate entities, rather it is perhaps easier to view them as slightly different threads of the same culture.

During the upheavals of the 1960's, many Chinese people fled from other locations in Jawa, notably in East Jawa, to Central Jawa, because they had the perception that this was a safer environment for them. This does not mean that there is no anti-Chinese feeling in these Central Javanese locations. Of course there is. The burnings, riots and rapes of only a few years ago are ample evidence of this. However, upon analysis this recent violence can perhaps be identified as situational violence directed at people identified as Chinese, rather than as a culturally based violence.

In Jawa it is not unusual to find people living and accepted as Javanese, who are in fact of Chinese descent and who at a different period in their lives had lived as members of a Chinese community.

In respect of weaponry, we should be careful not to accept a practice noted in an individual family, or a group of families, as being a general practice that can be applied across an entire community upon the basis of a cultural division that is often quite difficult to identify.

28th October 2009, 10:49 AM	#1
silkreeler Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 27	What is the equivalent of "Wahyu" in other cultures? Hi Everyone, I just learned from some articles that some Javanese believe certain krisses carry with them "wahyu" or divine mandate (loosely translated). Feel free to correct me if I perceive this wrong. Roughly it's like this: A kris or tombak can carry with it some divine (or otherwordly) will to perform certain "mission" for a possessing individual or a society in general. I have heard of certain krisses in Bali being displayed in some temples and people pray - either to the krisses or simply in front of them. I don't know precisely because I don't practice such belief system. The individual or institution in charge of safekeeping these tosan aji's often say that the the objects (or rather their inhabitants) were assigned the task of maintaining the well being of a specific community, say Banjar X. Now sometimes Banjar Y would come over and borrow the pusaka for a while due to a specific need, and presumably they would return the objects later (they better do - Banjar fights occasionally happen here ). Again, please state if you have different opinions - I am merely repeating what a friend said. Back to my question - are there similar phenomenon in other cultures? To my extent of knowledge, there are no specific temple in China in which a jian or dao is displayed (or kept in a certain sanctuary), given a name, and being told, 'hey you, you are the protector or caretaker of such and such village". I heard that the Japanese kept certain swords in shrines, but I'm not sure if they have similar belief systems regarding the spirits in the sword and their roles. What do you guys think? Last edited by silkreeler; 28th October 2009 at 10:55 AM. Reason: typho

3rd November 2009, 10:26 PM	#18
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I think that most if not all cultures have some 'history' or attributing a supernatural element to some weapons. It's not suprising when you consider that often it is weapons technoogy that is at the cutting edge of technological development. It isn't hard to see why that fact and that these items take lives, would lead to them being viewed in such a way. I can't think of any culture that doesn't have some kind of 'magic' weapons........ Perhaps not Fearns D&D +5 Sentient teleporter But we all seem to have something worth mention. Of course Excaliber is the most famous magical sword (probobly in the world) But when you think about it, Excalibers powers were not 'that' high on the scale of magical weapons. After all it was the scabbard that made the wearer invulnerable. Excaliber was just super sharp, could cut anything and could only be broken by being used for dishonorable purpose. Of course the 'sword in the stone' story has a 'lot' of similarites to Sigfried and 'Gram' being placed in a tree by Odin. English swords are way harder, they go into stone! So, how about the Japanese? Muramasa's swords are cursed and could alegedly produce an effect somewhere between 'bloodlust' and demonic posession in the weilder. Greek heroes could be given magic swords by the Gods. Our french members will tell about the paladin Roland's sword Durendal I'm sure. And if we are going to go the whole hog, then how about the magic weapons weilded by gods and demons? Thors hammer Mjöllnir (doesn't he chip a shard off of the Rainbow bridge with it that becomes a dagger?), The Arch-Angel Michael slays (other) demons with a sword which is often flaming. Hephestus makes all manner of interesting things in his forge. Diana has a bow, Mars carries a spear, Freyr has a 'dancing' sword... the list is endless! EDIT: Anyone like fiction? Fred Saberhagens 'books of swords' are pretty freaking sweet if you like your fictional magic weapon stories a bit more meaty that Moorcock. 'Farslayer howls around the world.. for thine heart which hast wronged me' The guys great! Sci-fi (Berserker novels) to magic swords (Empire of the east onwards) get reading! Pulp fun. Last edited by Atlantia; 3rd November 2009 at 11:06 PM.

28th October 2009, 05:21 PM	#2
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I think in Tibet, weapons were traditionally stockpiled in Buddhist temples and had some significance. I've also heard that in India, weapons can be greatly revered in religious settings, from the Sikhs sanctifying blades and practicing chatka on goats to Tamils revering temple-swords dedicated to Kali... In Chinese tradition, there were swords whose purpose was the kill/exorcise evil spirits and demons, but whether these had a entity within themselves and regarded as individuals is hard to say - I think not. I have also heard of the Japanese thing, keeping huge O-tachi in Shinto shrines... but again, I don't know much... but perhaps this can help spur some discussion.

28th October 2009, 08:14 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	I would love to see this discussed as it applies to the keris in Indonesian society, but if your question is about what other culture have such weapons or object that serve this purpose i really think it is a discussion best served in the main forum where you will have the input of collectors with knowledge of a much larger variance of traditions and cultures. We really try to keep our discussion here specifically focused on the keris.

28th October 2009, 08:17 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	even us poor westerners have the tradition of magical weapons, special swords like excaliber, or swords forged by elves and dwarves with mystical powers. bronze swords, (cast in stone moulds - the origin of the 'sword in the stone'?) were ritually 'killed', broken or bent, as a sacrifice to the gods, and tossed into rivers and bogs...

29th October 2009, 02:08 AM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	For those of us geeks who grew up with heroic fantasy and Dungeons and Dragons, magic swords have intelligence an ego, and/or a mission are nothing new. Thinking about it, I wonder where those ideas came from? Words like Geas, Weird, and Fate do come to mind as rough translations for Wahyu. I'd also point out a rather odd book The Sword of Heaven (Amazon Link), which is the reportedly true story of a shinto priest's (successful?) attempt to save the world using a magic sword. Interesting story, whether you're a true believer or not. If this did happen, I hope that collectors leave the sword where it is! Best, F

29th October 2009, 04:50 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	It wasn't Frodo ?!?!

29th October 2009, 06:44 AM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Read the book, Rick.

30th October 2009, 03:19 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	OK, i guess a magic sword must have been involved here somewhere because i could have sworn this was first posted in the keris forum, but i see no sign of it being moved from there to hear. Well if it has always been here ignore my last post.

30th October 2009, 11:59 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Please forgive me Silkreeler, but I have read your initial post a number of times, and what you are saying about wahyu is very difficult for me to understand within the context of the keris. In fact, I cannot recall ever having heard the word, wahyu , or the concept that is represented by wahyu, being associated with the keris.My understanding of the word and concept of "wahyu" is that it is a sign from heaven, most often in the form of a falling star, that the person indicated by this falling star is intended for high office. It is most frequently associated with the appointment of a village head, or with the taking of power by a new king. Wahyu is a sign from heaven. In Indonesian, as distinct from Javanese, wahyu has more of the meaning of a devine revelation, sometimes in the form of a vision. The esoteric essences that are most usually associated with the keris are "isi" and "tuah". These are not the same, or even similar. The word "isi" means "contents". When we speak of the isi of a keris we are referring to that essence that we believe is contained within the keris, it might be a (spiritual) tiger or some other animal, or it might be some spiritual being, either good or evil. The word "tuah" has several associated meanings, but in the context of the keris the applicable meaning is probably best satisfied by "magic power". As an example, the tuah of the pamor batu lapak is believed to be that the owner of a keris with this pamor will accumulate many beautiful women and will live in a peaceful home. Truly magic power! Many beautiful women all living peacefully with one man as lord? Yeah---right! So essentially isi applies to one specific individual keris. It might be the ugliest, most degraded and deformed keris of all time, but it could have as an isi an incredibly powerful spiritual force. On the other hand, tuah is associated with some identifiable physical feature, very often a pamor motif, and this physical feature bestows good luck of a certain kind, because of the magic power associated with it. But then there is the nature of the keris as pusaka. The nature of the keris as pusaka is that it performs the role of binding all previous rightful custodians of that keris to the current custodian.It also binds the current custodian to all members of the current custodian's kin group. So it is a two dimensional binding force:- binding the past with the present and all applicable beings within the present. In this context of keris as pusaka, the keris has become a materialisation of the Naga Basuki flowing through the cosmos and binding all dimensions as one. For those who contribute to this belief system, this means that the current holder can call upon assistance of past custodians to help overcome a difficulty that is besetting current members of the kin group. This was the thought process of the ruler of Klungkung when he faced Dutch forces with only his pusaka keris, expecting the powers of the ancestors to obliterate the Dutch. In the present day, where one banjar borrows a pusaka keris, it will be found that the members of both banjars will be associated with the same kin group.Thus, there is no tranfer of any magic power, but only a transfer of focus of the binding power of the Naga that links the new (borrowing) holder of the pusaka with the previous custodians, and whatever assistance these previous custodians may be able to render. The concepts of tuah, isi, and pusaka are in no way related. Silkreeler, I would very much like to read these articles that have provided you with the information that generated your initial post. Are these articles available on line? If not, can you tell us who wrote them, where were they published, and what is the writer's background?

31st October 2009, 12:54 AM	#12
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Dear All, some citations from "Court arts from Indonesia": In extended analyses of the nature of power, which pervades both the material and nonmaterial world in Indonesian belief, one aspect emerges clearly: power is paradoxical. The more it is exercised or needs to be demonstrated, the less effective it is; perceptibility diminishes its substance, knowledge of it implies control. Anderson's much-quoted definition is so apt that it bears repetition: "Power exists, independent of its possible users. It is not a theoretical postulate but an existential reality. Power is that intangible, mysterious and divine energy which animates the universe... In Javanese traditional thinking there is no sharp division between organic and inorganic matter, for everything is sustained by the same inwisible power. This conception of the entire cosmos being suffused by formless, constantly creative energy provides the basic link between the "animism" of the Javanese willages and the high metaphysical pantheism of the urban centers" (page 84) The invincibility of and unquestionable rights to absolute royal power, familiar to students of the theory of the divine right of kings in the west, achieve their ultimate fulfillment in WAHYU. This sign of supernatural power was usually manifested by a glowing light and left the body on death. In some cases a princess with a "flaming womb" was perceiwed as the mother of kings; Ken Angrok, first king of Singasari (1222-27), was adwised to marry Ken Dedes because her flaming womb guaranteed a line of monarchs. In a second case, tailored to legitimize the power of the Dutch, a princess with a flaming womb was sold to a Dutchman whose descendents thereby acquired legitimacy in Java. In a different version, the WAHYU of Amangkurat II (1677-1703) was said at his death to have taken the form of a grain of light on his penis. Perceived and drawn in by his nephew Prince Puger, manifestation of the WAHYU and its posession eventually confirmed Puger as Pakubuwono I (1705-19) over the direct claims of his cousin, Amangkurat III (1703-05). (page 88) What interests me in this subject is, were it possible to see Keris as a form of a body?, which bears a power, I mean also possibly a human body?

31st October 2009, 02:11 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Yes, exactly Gustav, and this is the reason why the designated inheritor of a power wants to be present at the death of the person whose place he will take, so that the wahyu can go directly to him, and not be confused into going elsewhere. The wahyu is the sign, not the actual power that the sign indicates. As I have already stated, I have not heard of the use of the concept of wahyu in association with keris. The keris is not a form of a body. Man is created by God, but the keris is created by man. Those who believe in the powers that flow from a keris can hold the belief that those powers flow from various esoteric sources, but the keris is the focus of the powers and those powers cannot exist except in the presence of the suitable human agent. The pusaka keris of a Balinese kin group has a relationship to people within that group, and to one person within that group in particular, but it cannot have that relationship to one who is not a member of the group. For some people a particular keris may possess a certain isi, but for others the isi does not exist. For some people a particular tuah may be an effective talisman, for other people it may have no effect, or worse, be a negative influence. The concept of wahyu simply does not fit within the keris belief system.

31st October 2009, 09:08 PM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Thanks for the link. Mohd. I had suspected that wahyu might have come from Arabic, as it does not seem to appear in any form in Old Javanese. Knowing the original meaning and application is enlightening. In fact, if we plough through enough dictionaries one of the meanings given to wahyu is "revelation". However, the way in which I have learnt to use it, and heard it used, in Jawa is as an indicator from God of the designated authority of a person. Usually you will hear it in association with a ruler, but I have also heard it used in association with people of lesser authority. Going back a very long time I misunderstood this word. I thought that it referred to the actual power itself, and although I had it explained to me, at that time my understanding of the Javanese thought process was inadequate to allow me to understand that it did not refer to power, but was an indicator of where the power should rest.

3rd November 2009, 08:15 PM	#17
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 424	silkreeler, as asking if different cultures had or had customs akin to the malay peoples belifes regarding the kris and other weapons , i would say a close analog would be the polynesians and melanesians in the pacific,, aspecialy the maori . with some clubs being "famous" and being attractive enough to be the source of an attack in invasion from another tribe to capture the item for their own use.. the more note worthy and powerful worriors that the weapon killed or was used to sacrifice the more power it had , and also specific gods and p sprits and ancestors would be associtaed with it, the more people how owned it in the past also could increase its power , the weapon could also take on quests for gots or contain some powers the owner may not be totaly in control or awear of untill they were revealed ...

4th November 2009, 05:27 AM	#19
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	I would like to point out that legends of Excalibur (originally Caledfwlch) and myths of Greek heroes receiving magic swords from the gods are just that, myths and legends, often written well after the supposed fact. The difference i see with keris and it's concepts of tuah and isi as well of concepts of royal pusaka and the abilities to disperse power and rights of rule through the passing of a specific blade to subservient leaders throughout one's kingdom was not myth or legend, but a living cultural reality. Whether or not one believes that these powers resided within the keris or not is irrelavent. That the people of that culture believed was all that was need to make it true for them. These practices and beliefs are well recorded and documented and can't really be compared with magic swords of the gods or heroes of fiction. BTW, it seems that Excalibur and the Sword in the Stone were derived from separate myths that at some point became one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur

4th November 2009, 12:36 PM	#20
mohd Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 41	The most famous keris in Malay culture is Keris Taming Sari. Click here and here to know more about Keris Taming Sari Mohd.

4th November 2009, 06:22 PM	#21
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi David, Generally, the sword in the stone and Excalibur were different weapons. Is Disney the one that conflated them? There's an interesting dichotomy that I think the keris terminology has caught: there are magical swords that can do things normal blades cannot do. This is similar to the isi concept (If I understand tuah, it's more of a categorical property than an individual one). This is Excalibur, which was given by, and returned to, the Lady in the Lake. Then there's the pusaka concept, which is a keris that (as I understand it, and leaving out the spiritual dimension) legitimizes power and relationships. This is more of the Sword in the Stone, which was thrust into the stone by Arthur's father, as a means for recognizing his rightful heir after his death. The concepts are not identical, but then, the concept of pusaka being tied into a weapon is not so common in European folklore, I think.

5th November 2009, 04:20 AM	#22
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	The keris as pusaka cannot be divorced from its spiritual element. The keris as pusaka does not only legitimise power or a relationship, and it need not necessarily do either. The essential element of the keris as pusaka is its binding power.

5th November 2009, 06:42 AM	#23
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Once again, Arthurian legend was pieced together from the writings of various medieval romantic writers weaving their tales many centuries after the historical Arthur may have lived. If the question here is are there similar cultural beliefs to those held in Indonesia in regards to the keris i think it is a hard stretch to relate these stories of the sword in the stone or Excalibur to the living, albiet fading, cultural traditions of the keris which are real, not legendary. I am speaking in regards to the beliefs of tuah and isi and the practice of passing down keris as pusaka to serve as a binding element to ones relations. These traditions were real and pervasive within this culture for centuries. Nothing like this existed in any European culture as far as i know, even if there was a weapon here or there that was deemed special or powerful.

12th November 2009, 06:51 PM	#25
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	This is an interesting discussion. I would like to contribute some stories I have heard about swords and powers/spirits from the Chinese Indonesian community. My understanding of traditional Chinese sword culture is that a sword is potentially unlucky, due to the inherent power it represents. As a sword is used, its power increases, until some would not be willing to have an antique in their house because the power in it is too great and bad things could happen. Used weapons in Tibetan culture are kept in an inner sanctuary to be used by guardian spirits in the fight against evil and for protecting the temple. I suspect this also places their power in a safe place to be used for good not evil. In Chinese Indonesian culture the links to animistic practices are a bit stronger. When a new sword is acquired it must be cleaned, and then put on an alter to attract a good spirit. One offers flowers and incense to encourage a good spirit, or meat to encourage a powerful and potentially more dangerous spirit. Letting people of good will handle a sword without feelings of jealousy also encourages a good spirit. I suspect this is closely aligned with the concept of "isi" because there does not seem to be a direct connection between the quality of a blade and the spirit that can inhabit it. If the sword is a personal weapon, or a family heirloom, it is kept near the alter, usually to one side, but is not usually directly prayed to. I think keeping it near the alter makes it safer. Particularly interesting is the idea that a sword would not necessarily have a spirit, but that it can acquire one. The spirit can be invited into a sword and change over time according to use and ritual practices. "Temple swords" and "alter swords" are those specifically to be used in ritual practices and are not to be confused with weapons. They usually have magical incantations and or symbols on them and it is considered bad luck to practice sword dances or other weapon oriented activities with them. There is a practical side to this because the temple swords are often of low quality and may not even be steel, so practicing with them could indeed be dangerous. Nevertheless, once again we can see that the quality of a sword and the power of a spirit within it are not necessarily connected. In Chinese culture swords should always be respected, never placed on the ground, and not neglected. The people I know from Indonesia sometimes say to clean them every full moon. On the other hand, swords are dangerous, potentially bad luck, and not revered as objects of worship. This often leads to the situation where a sword is placed high up and ignored as it slowly rusts in the high humidity. Josh

12th November 2009, 10:42 PM	#26
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	In Jawa people who identify themselves as Chinese , and who are identified by others as being a part of the Chinese community have absorbed a very large part of Javanese culture, which they tend to identify not as Javanese culture, but as their own culture. This applies to native born Javanese Chinese, most particularly to those who come from a family that has been in Jawa for a lengthy period of time. Yes, some elements of original Chinese culture are in evidence, but there are beliefs and practices that are not Chinese, but rather Javanese, that the Chinese-Javanese ( and I guess, the Chinese-Indonesian) person will claim to be a part of Chinese culture that can be positively identified as being borrowed from Javanese or some other local culture ( in the case of Chinese -Indonesian). This particularly applies to those Chinese communities that are located in the old seats of Javanese power, such as Surakarta and Jogjakarta. In these places it is often quite difficult to determine exactly where Javanese culture stops and Chinese culture starts. For example , the Chinese businessman and art connoisseur, Go Tik Swan, rose to an elevated position in the Karaton Surakarta with the designation of Panembahan Harjonegoro. In these old Karaton cities the Chinese and Javanese communities are so interwoven that it is difficult to view them as separate entities, rather it is perhaps easier to view them as slightly different threads of the same culture. During the upheavals of the 1960's, many Chinese people fled from other locations in Jawa, notably in East Jawa, to Central Jawa, because they had the perception that this was a safer environment for them. This does not mean that there is no anti-Chinese feeling in these Central Javanese locations. Of course there is. The burnings, riots and rapes of only a few years ago are ample evidence of this. However, upon analysis this recent violence can perhaps be identified as situational violence directed at people identified as Chinese, rather than as a culturally based violence. In Jawa it is not unusual to find people living and accepted as Javanese, who are in fact of Chinese descent and who at a different period in their lives had lived as members of a Chinese community. In respect of weaponry, we should be careful not to accept a practice noted in an individual family, or a group of families, as being a general practice that can be applied across an entire community upon the basis of a cultural division that is often quite difficult to identify.