Native American gunstock club

[RSWORD]

I ran across this lovely club recently and while it is not my general forte it just seemed to look and feel right. I know there are a lot of reproductions in Native American items but most of the gunstock clubs I have seen at shows that were contemporary tend to be a bit over the top with loads of brass tacks, feathers, etc. This one is much more subtle, lovely patina and colors and really feels great in the hands. So, am looking for opinions as to whether or not this item is original or not. Thanks.

[t_c]

Nice piece. I know what you mean about the repro stuff - most of it is really gaudy. I have no idea if yours is the real thing or not, but I thought this might help:
Trade Axe and Tomahawk Collectors Association
(they probably have a good idea about the authenticity of your piece)

Here's a gunstock blade from their site that does look similar to yours though (scroll way down - 2nd to last at bottom of page):
killer gunstock style tomahawk spontoon trade blade

[Andrew]

Native American weapons have become a quiet passion of mine in recent years, Rick. Unfortunately, the prices on these things combined with the proliferation of fakes and rarity of genuine items have prevented me from aquiring any. I'd be terrified to spend what genuine stuff commands for fear of learning a very painful lesson. Consequently, I haven't handled or looked at nearly enough of these to have my opinion count for very much, so keep that in mind.

Gunstock clubs like yours are, as I'm sure you're aware, most often attributed to the eastern woodland tribes. Similar clubs were used by various Plains tribes, but they were much less massive, with generally thinner profiles.

The blades, when present, were usually "trade" blades manufactured in Europe or, quite often, by skilled American blacksmiths. Your blade is exactly what I would expect to see on one of these. Are there any marks at all on your blade?

Any provenance supplied by the seller?

It's next to impossible to really get a feel for this lovely thing just from photos. If genuine, it looks remarkably well-cared for. Any subtle signs of wear around the handle? How about on the striking areas? I would expect to see signs of use (or at least re-finishing) on such a weapon, particularly since it isn't all tarted-up.

[Jim McDougall]

Rsword,
What amazing timing! Lately I've become pretty preoccupied with Native American cultural study and some of the weaponry used, but completely agree with Andrew, pretty scary thinking of acquiring examples with the repro stuff out there.
I know that years ago I became intrigued by the interesting gunstock club used in "Last of the Mohicans" and did some research.....wish I had my notes on it here!! I remember speaking with the guy who made the examples for the movie..I think he was in Tennessee. Also remember corresponding with Norm Flayderman....he is 'the man' when it comes to Americana!!!! I think he knows more on Native American weaponry than anybody and of course has written considerably on the subject.

I would really like to see more discussion on Native American weapons here! Sort of our own home ethnographic weapons yet seldom discussed!

All the best,
Jim

[CharlesS]

To me Rick's club's wood looks awfully machined, and the paint looks like an oil base rather than a more muted earth tone. But hard to tell from the pics.

I collected repro Native American weapons for years for display in my history and religion classes(...wished I coulda used 'em in class a couple of times ), and I can tell you that the some of the repros out there have an astonishingly authentic look to them. Many Native American artists reproduce these weapons as, just that, art, and they use authentic styles and materials. I wish I had kept pics of some of my old stuff or some examples for here, but I sold them all to a tourist trading post in Oklahoma.

About 10 years ago some of the props used in Dances with Wolves were sold and they may have been props, but they were "the real thing" in every regard, just not old. I was lucky enough to get a ball head war club from the movie, but again sold it.......for blades.

My point is that I have seen enough of these to know that I would NEVER, EVER buy a piece that I assumed was pre-20th Cent. without the input of a real expert.

[Henk]

I really like this stuff, but i cann't say a thing about it.

Even when it is a repro, it is a very nice club. But my first impression on this club is the same as CharlesS. I don't think it is hand made.

Just like Jim I would also like to see more of native american weapons and learn from it. Even for an European it is a very interesting subject.

[RSWORD]

I think it is wise to lean towards precaution when reviewing these items. Unfortunately, my pictures really do not do the piece justice and I think it is hard to make assessments simply from pictures, unless of course someone says, "hey, that is regularly sold on such a such website." Some online research yielded the following mid-19th examples for comparison purposes.

http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/haw...arclub-002.jpg


http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/haw...arclub-003.jpg


Now, for my education and from these additional pictures please tell me how to tell the difference between machined and hand made?

[Lew]

Question

Does the blade have any markings on it? I would think if the blades on these clubs were made either in Europe or the USA way back in the 1800s they would be stamped with some type of mark?

Lew

[Tim Simmons]

A couple of questions. Are these based on a gun stock. Was this form made before a frequent supply of guns. The examples I have in books all sugest they are from the early 1800s- 1820 . Which may suggest it is possible that they are not actual fighting weapons? when compered to other Wood Land clubs and plains weapons. Many of the real fighting weapons do seem to look a little more like the big knobkerries from SA. Surely the supply of guns in the Eastern Wood lands by the 1800s made these more as prestige items. It would be really nice if this was the real thing, I do not like the angle cut at the handle.

[CharlesS]

My info on these is that they were quite literally made to look like gunstocks to deceive an enemy from a distance. In a time when muskets were a feared and precious commodity among Native Americans just the simple perception that one side had more guns than the other could start...or stop...potential battle. Some seem to think that many of the clubs were literally made from gunstocks, thus the name, but this is generally untrue. You could make an arguement that these made have been a psychological weapon to a degree.

Tim's comment about dress or ceremonial pieces is a good one. These types of clubs show up an awful lot in the famous portraits(Catlin, etc.) of the era.

I don't think there is any 'absolute' rule with these, like so many other ethnographic pieces.

[Andrew]

Rick, any wear on it not visible in the photos? Marks on the blade?

It is extremely similar to a club that appears on page 23 of Taylor's Native American Weapons. It is described so:

A magnificent gunstock-shaped club collected in the 1820's by the traveler, Duke Paul of Wurttemberg...This one, probably from the Osage, has a trade steel blade and a handle wrapped with snakeskin.

Your's has painted line detailing on the "stock" nearly identical to Duke Paul's. The similarities are, otherwise, striking.

Outstanding club, Rick!

[Andrew]

Some claim these go back as far as the early 17th century. A convenient era of origin to choose, as guns would have been familiar, even if not truly common, in the Americas by that time.

Let's face it, once guns became readily accessible to Native Americans, all other major weapons became obsolete and relegated to either ceremonial use or obsolescense.

What a devastating weapon this must have been when in regular use!

[Tim Simmons]

Look at this club in the Detroit institute of arts. To me it knocks anything described as "Jewel encrusted with profuse and lavish decoration of thick silver and gold" into a tricorne hat.

[CharlesS]

That piece is in many NA art and weapons books, and it is absolutely amazing.

If you are interested in NA weapons a good starting reference is WARRIORS: Warfare and the Native American Indian, by Norman Bancroft-Hunt. It's a nicely done book, and though out of print, should be available at remainder prices.

[RSWORD]

Thanks for the feedback thusfar. Unfortunately, the pictures simply do not do the piece justice. I think I need to invest in a new camera. The oral provenance provided by the lady I purchased from stated she had acquired it from a museum deacession. There is patina and wear on this piece. The blade does not have any markings. Luckily, I will be meeting Sir Charles and Sir Jose for dinner, a tall Taj Mahal, and then these guys will get to pick this thing apart. I look forward to their opinions after handling the piece and maybe we can come to a consensus or maybe we will be just as confused. In either case, we should be fat and happy from dinner! More to come.

[Jim McDougall]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I became fascinated with these unusual weapons after seeing "Last of the Mohicans" in 1998, and eventually contacted the gentleman who made the examples used in the movie by Russell Means (Jim "Yellow Eagle" Morgan of Tennessee). It seemed extraordinary that the club in the movie was a bright blue and apparantly was considerably larger than the actual examples.
Original detail suggested that these had been in use for centuries (the period was of course French-Indian war c.1754-63), and it is suggested that the weapon would actually have been anachronistic for the Mohicans in this period. I'm not sure if this meant that the form had diffused to the west or was no longer used in a combat sense. It does seem that this form of club with an imbedded blade appeared in numerous forms in diverse tribes in later periods. Most of the examples I have seen are for example Osage c.1820, Pawnee c.1860 and of course many others. Peterson ("American Indian Tomahawks") attributes these mostly to Sioux and Chippewa.

I naturally wondered also if these had been actually fashioned from or in imitation of gunstocks. Most research suggested this may have been simply a free association term applied by either colonial observers or later, it is unclear when the term was first applied or by whom. One suggestion notes these date in early 17th c. which is probably accurate, but it would seem the form may have existed pre-contact. In Burton ("Book of the Sword" p.28) it is noted that the Iroquois used a similar weapon termed (ga-ne-u-ga-o-dus-ha) which apparantly means 'deer horn war club'. This data was apparantly derived from Lewis Morgan in "League of the Iroquois" (Rochester N.Y.1851).
It would seem the use of animal horn for such clubs would be consistant with early tribal weaponry and that post contact the use of metals (most likely of course European weapons) were substituted. The deer horn would naturally have provided the protruding blade in the original weapons.

The suggestion that European musket stock blanks were used to fashion these weapons seems unlikely, as these would have been unwieldy and not well suited for a weapon whose general form, in my impression, seems established precontact. It is however known that Europeans did indeed use guns as clubs once discharged and especially when overrun, so the suggestion that Native Americans witnessed this would have seemed plausible in the suggestions. This situation with vulnerability after the discharge and lack of time to reload of course led to the development of the bayonet, and possibly to the comment in one source that noted that the French soldiers in America would often imbed knife blades in thier muskets (suggesting the imbedding of blades in these clubs from Native American observation). This reference probably derived from the use of bayonets.

In considering the imbedding of blades in weapons such as clubs I also thought of the early Aztec war clubs which obsidian pieces situated in rows in the 'mahquahuitl' for example. I wondered if this practice might have diffused as far north as the Iroquian culture. Returning to Burton (op.cit. p.49) he does cite Morgan's 1851 reference again and it is noted that opening burial mounds in the far west, rows of flint lying side by side in regular order probably had been fastened in sticks or swords like the Mexican (Aztec).

It is uncertain exactly how this form of weapon originated or subsequently diffused, however the material I have collected here may at least give some basis for plausible theories. I have only written this in order to collect the material I have discovered so far, and to share it with those interested in learning more on these interesting weapons, and in hopes that others will pursue the topic further. As always, I very much look forward to ideas, observations and other material that will either refute or support what I have included here.

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Rick,
I wanted to talk more on your war club and outside the text of the general research I just posted. Your example is a beauty! and not having expertise on authenticating these, which requires specialization in large degree, I just wanted to add observations.

The painted decoration and overall wood seems varnished or oiled, and I am wondering if this might suggest at least latter 19th c. I'm not sure if the tribes using these in earlier periods applied painted decoration on weapons, though of course paints were used on thier own person, horses, tipis etc. I think in degree though, certain colored lines may have been applied on bows and arrows. I wonder how thier paints were made, and if this decoration is consistant with that type paint. I guess I'm thinking forensically

After the advent of Buffalo Bills wild west spectacles and so on, it seems that 'Indian' paraphenalia became quite popular to the public, however it would seem that the most obvious items would have been the cliche' items, especially for example, tomahawks. It would not seem to me that a weapon relatively not known to the average citizen would have been produced in the trade or souvenier industry of the times. Possibly this may have been a ceremonial piece produced in tribal sphere using the commercial materials available from the increasing settler population?

As always, you find fascinating pieces!!! and now to find something of this quality Native American! Outstanding.

All the best,
Jim

[Battara]

Rsword brought this to my house over the weekend and under high magnification the paint is actually a mixture of water based dye and paint that is obsorped inti the wood. IT is darker than the pictures and has patina, making me think that this is actually older and possibly mid-1800s and not later reservation period. The blade is also old and hand forged.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Battara,
Thank you for the update, I was hoping this thread wouldnt end.
Your observations sound right on, and as I had suggested this item probably was from plains tribes in the earlier period you note. As I noted, it is unlikely this would have come from the 'souvenier' period post Wild Bill and this would indeed be an authentic piece......fantastic!

Thank you for pointing out the type of paint also. In more reading I discovered more on the painting being consistant with these also.

All best regards,
Jim

[CharlesS]

I had a chance to study this one with Battara and Rsword this past weekend in Louisville, and my position on it has changes 180 degrees. The patination and paint ...but especially the patination... make me sure this is no new piece.
Rsword will readily admit that his pics do not do it justice, and he's right. I am really not sure any pics would do it justice...this is just one of those really unique pieces you almost have to hold or see in person to appreciate. It's a real gem!

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding Charles!!! Thank you for the update also, and now that you guys have all gotten to handle this piece, it seems Rick has once again struck gold!!! Rascal!!!
All the best guys,
Jim

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

That piece is in many NA art and weapons books, and it is absolutely amazing.

If you are interested in NA weapons a good starting reference is WARRIORS: Warfare and the Native American Indian, by Norman Bancroft-Hunt. It's a nicely done book, and though out of print, should be available at remainder prices.

But not as rare as you think....
watch my ebay listing this weekend........