Keris pamor

Green · 5th August 2015, 04:00 AM

I recently visited a local collector here that have some keris with very beautiful pamor. Went back to this forum to do a search for good examples of the same and was mildly surprised that there is no specific thread about this important keris feature.

As I am a very new and uneducated keris collector, I would appreciate if any forrumers /experts /collectors can show their keris with good pamors . This will helpfully aid me in understanding pamor better and choosing better specimen to buy to upgrade my sorry collection.

Pamor types are many, very complex and confusing to identify .Attached are some pics of pamor types/identification taken from an indonesian keris blog but I'd really like to see photos of real keris with good pamors from any of you. thanks.

Rick · 5th August 2015, 10:56 PM

Welcome to the forum Green .

Rather than ask us to repost many of our kerises I think you would be better served by purchasing a copy of ENSIKLOPEDI KERIS and then use the search engine in the Warung to view other examples belonging to members here .

maxbliss888 · 6th August 2015, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

I recently visited a local collector here that have some keris with very beautiful pamor. Went back to this forum to do a search for good examples of the same and was mildly surprised that there is no specific thread about this important keris feature.

As I am a very new and uneducated keris collector, I would appreciate if any forrumers /experts /collectors can show their keris with good pamors . This will helpfully aid me in understanding pamor better and choosing better specimen to buy to upgrade my sorry collection.

Pamor types are many, very complex and confusing to identify .Attached are some pics of pamor types/identification taken from an indonesian keris blog but I'd really like to see photos of real keris with good pamors from any of you. thanks.

Hi Green,

The forum here is a bit quiet.

Please see enclosed example

maxbliss888 · 6th August 2015, 06:39 AM

Closer view
Looks like the Benda Sagada Winengku

Green · 6th August 2015, 10:27 AM

thanks Max...very beautiful...

Rick;

The reason I ask our more experienced members/collectors to post their keris here is so that it can inform me what is the quality I should aim for when I plan to do my purchase... as it is I'm clueless as to what is the yardstick or standard I should aim for...

sorry if i sound too green for this forum.

A. G. Maisey · 6th August 2015, 10:38 AM

Green, nobody is too green for this forum:- all of us are only students, none of us are yet masters --- in fact, where the keris is concerned I feel that at the present time it might be just a little bit difficult to find anybody, anywhere who could claim to be a master.

I understand your motivation in asking to see examples, but it may be that actual examples of pamors could confuse you, possibly a more useful approach could be to look at line drawings, such as can be found in Tammens, and then look for pamor execution that comes close to the drawing of the motif.

Jean · 6th August 2015, 02:36 PM

Hello Green,
I understand your request and will try to help you but first you should realize that all these nice pamors are basically Javanese or Indonesian and it may be extremely difficult for you to find old blades with such pamor.
I attach the pics of 5 blades with a style of pamor included in your list, will you be able to identify them? I can provide more detailed pics if required.
Regards

maxbliss888 · 7th August 2015, 02:29 AM

Hi ! The Keris from Southern Thailand tends to have less design.. And have simple grey colour and blades are often straight as well...

Henk · 7th August 2015, 08:28 AM

The keris from the Malay area tend to be often pamorless.

Rick · 7th August 2015, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

The reason I ask our more experienced members/collectors to post their keris here is so that it can inform me what is the quality I should aim for when I plan to do my purchase... as it is I'm clueless as to what is the yardstick or standard I should aim for...

Well, maybe we should discuss instead what constitutes a well executed pamor .

Henk · 7th August 2015, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

The reason I ask our more experienced members/collectors to post their keris here is so that it can inform me what is the quality I should aim for when I plan to do my purchase... as it is I'm clueless as to what is the yardstick or standard I should aim for...

Don't make it too hard for yourself. Use your common sense when you look at a piece. I think the most important things are: Do you like it? What is it and does it meet your expectations? And most important, can i afford it?

If the answer is tripple yes, it is what you are aiming at.

Jean · 7th August 2015, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Well, maybe we should discuss instead what constitutes a well executed pamor .

A good picture is worth one thousand words

We already discussed the well executed pamor subject many times I think.
Regards

Green · 8th August 2015, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Don't make it too hard for yourself. Use your common sense when you look at a piece. I think the most important things are: Do you like it? What is it and does it meet your expectations? And most important, can i afford it?

If the answer is tripple yes, it is what you are aiming at.

Henk;

Here's the problem. facebook is full of young Indonesians trying to sell new keris for dirt cheap price (very often around usd150 or less) and based on the pics some have quite good looking pamors.

The issue is; are these really good keris with good pamors ? (albeit new ones/not antiques)...how do we judge them (from the pics) ? I guess by looking at examples of good old keris genuine antique keris pamors...? hence my original question posed here.

Here are two examples of new keris offered by fb friends... what do you think of these pamors ?

Henk · 8th August 2015, 09:37 AM

Very nice pamors on both blades. Both keris are brand new. My problem with these two blades is the rust. Maybe it is slight surface rust that can be whiped away with a cloth and oil. After treating a blade with warangan it should be oiled preventing from rust. I don't know how the dress of the second blade looks like but i wouldn't be punished with those two kerisses.

You'd better do some reading on this forum. There are some threads that are discussing your question i suppose.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=tourist
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=tourist

A. G. Maisey · 8th August 2015, 10:56 PM

I wouldn't say "brand new" Henk, this type of Madura work has been around since at least the 1985. There was similar stuff done in Madura, and maybe East Jawa, in the early 20th century through to WWII, but not a lot of it, so its unlikely to be from that earlier period.

The little bit of rust on these blades is negligible, and not a cause for even the slightest concern, it can be cleaned off with patience, penetrating oil, a hard toothbrush, and a few strands of 00 steel wool wound around the end of a wooden sate skewer.

Quality of these two blades? Pretty ordinary. Certainly not bad, but also certainly not exceptional. FAQ.

Rather than focus on how good, bad, or indifferent the pamor is, I would suggest that garap should be given precedence in blade appraisal, with well executed pamor, if present, being a nice little extra.

Jean · 21st August 2015, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Rather than focus on how good, bad, or indifferent the pamor is, I would suggest that garap should be given precedence in blade appraisal, with well executed pamor, if present, being a nice little extra.

Hello Alan,
This thread failed to raise much interest and the forum is very quiet these days may be due to the Holiday season.
Many kris collectors focus in priority on the visual pamor style and quality to the detriment of the garap of the blade which is less a spectacular or more subjective feature for some of us. And many antique blades have a poor garap (and pamor) due to the wear but remain attractive pieces.
Would you please try to define what constitutes a good garap versus a bad one and show us some examples? I could contribute with some blade specimens if required.
Regards
PS: In the second paragraph I would rather have said "poor pawakan" than "poor garap", sorry.

A. G. Maisey · 21st August 2015, 02:10 PM

Jean, I think this would be getting back to "what constitutes a good keris" thread --- which went on forever.

I'm not going to post any photos of examples of good workmanship (garap) because it is extremely rare to find that all elements of a keris blade have been done well. You might find that the sogokan in a blade is superb, but then you look at the greneng and it has been poorly done, or maybe just incorrectly interpreted, you can find ricikan done well, but in a blade that has really terrible pawakan (overall visual impression). Really terrible pawakan???? How do explain what is good pawakan to somebody who has no background at all in Javanese culture, and sees the world with different eyes to a Javanese person? In respect of the pawakan thing, I've just about given up trying because just when I think I've succeeded in getting the message across, the person I'm trying to help demonstrates that I have failed. Badly.

Maybe for an ordinary interested collector the best yardstick might be to stick with the type of standards that can be applied to all types of craft work, things like good clean lines, straight lines, parts of a circle, harmony, proportion. The "sure hand". Without getting too esoteric, sticking with these standards is going to give a positive result, even if that positive result is not 100% perfect.

However, you're dead right Jean:- the first thing that 99.9% of collectors see is the pamor, and that is very often what they fall in love with, no matter what the rest of the keris looks like.

You've used the word "subjective". In my experience the vast bulk of all keris collectors use subjective judgement in evaluating a keris, and since I am an advocate of the "if you like it, its a good keris for you" school, I reckon that subjective judgement is OK. Quite simply, not every keris interested person wants to spend the major part of his life in learning how to correctly evaluate an artifact from a foreign culture. Its more fun just to collect.

Jean · 21st August 2015, 07:14 PM

Hello Alan,
Thank you for your reply and I realize the extreme complexity of my question and that the garap and pawakan are two distinct features even if they may often go together.
Many kris collectors are deeply interested to learn how to evaluate a kris blade but few are willing to spend the time to study the javanese culture in detail first as this is very difficult and may be too late....
Regards

5th August 2015, 04:00 AM	#1
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	Keris pamor I recently visited a local collector here that have some keris with very beautiful pamor. Went back to this forum to do a search for good examples of the same and was mildly surprised that there is no specific thread about this important keris feature. As I am a very new and uneducated keris collector, I would appreciate if any forrumers /experts /collectors can show their keris with good pamors . This will helpfully aid me in understanding pamor better and choosing better specimen to buy to upgrade my sorry collection. Pamor types are many, very complex and confusing to identify .Attached are some pics of pamor types/identification taken from an indonesian keris blog but I'd really like to see photos of real keris with good pamors from any of you. thanks. Attached Images

6th August 2015, 06:39 AM	#4
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Kermis blade Closer view Looks like the Benda Sagada Winengku Attached Images

6th August 2015, 02:36 PM	#7
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Green, I understand your request and will try to help you but first you should realize that all these nice pamors are basically Javanese or Indonesian and it may be extremely difficult for you to find old blades with such pamor. I attach the pics of 5 blades with a style of pamor included in your list, will you be able to identify them? I can provide more detailed pics if required. Regards Attached Images Last edited by Jean; 6th August 2015 at 07:44 PM.

7th August 2015, 02:29 AM	#8
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Keris from Thailand Hi ! The Keris from Southern Thailand tends to have less design.. And have simple grey colour and blades are often straight as well... Attached Images

5th August 2015, 10:56 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Welcome to the forum Green . Rather than ask us to repost many of our kerises I think you would be better served by purchasing a copy of ENSIKLOPEDI KERIS and then use the search engine in the Warung to view other examples belonging to members here .

6th August 2015, 10:27 AM	#5
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 312	thanks Max...very beautiful... Rick; The reason I ask our more experienced members/collectors to post their keris here is so that it can inform me what is the quality I should aim for when I plan to do my purchase... as it is I'm clueless as to what is the yardstick or standard I should aim for... sorry if i sound too green for this forum.

6th August 2015, 10:38 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Green, nobody is too green for this forum:- all of us are only students, none of us are yet masters --- in fact, where the keris is concerned I feel that at the present time it might be just a little bit difficult to find anybody, anywhere who could claim to be a master. I understand your motivation in asking to see examples, but it may be that actual examples of pamors could confuse you, possibly a more useful approach could be to look at line drawings, such as can be found in Tammens, and then look for pamor execution that comes close to the drawing of the motif.

7th August 2015, 08:28 AM	#9
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	The keris from the Malay area tend to be often pamorless.

8th August 2015, 09:37 AM	#14
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Very nice pamors on both blades. Both keris are brand new. My problem with these two blades is the rust. Maybe it is slight surface rust that can be whiped away with a cloth and oil. After treating a blade with warangan it should be oiled preventing from rust. I don't know how the dress of the second blade looks like but i wouldn't be punished with those two kerisses. You'd better do some reading on this forum. There are some threads that are discussing your question i suppose. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=tourist http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=tourist

8th August 2015, 10:56 PM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	I wouldn't say "brand new" Henk, this type of Madura work has been around since at least the 1985. There was similar stuff done in Madura, and maybe East Jawa, in the early 20th century through to WWII, but not a lot of it, so its unlikely to be from that earlier period. The little bit of rust on these blades is negligible, and not a cause for even the slightest concern, it can be cleaned off with patience, penetrating oil, a hard toothbrush, and a few strands of 00 steel wool wound around the end of a wooden sate skewer. Quality of these two blades? Pretty ordinary. Certainly not bad, but also certainly not exceptional. FAQ. Rather than focus on how good, bad, or indifferent the pamor is, I would suggest that garap should be given precedence in blade appraisal, with well executed pamor, if present, being a nice little extra.

21st August 2015, 02:10 PM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,887	Jean, I think this would be getting back to "what constitutes a good keris" thread --- which went on forever. I'm not going to post any photos of examples of good workmanship (garap) because it is extremely rare to find that all elements of a keris blade have been done well. You might find that the sogokan in a blade is superb, but then you look at the greneng and it has been poorly done, or maybe just incorrectly interpreted, you can find ricikan done well, but in a blade that has really terrible pawakan (overall visual impression). Really terrible pawakan???? How do explain what is good pawakan to somebody who has no background at all in Javanese culture, and sees the world with different eyes to a Javanese person? In respect of the pawakan thing, I've just about given up trying because just when I think I've succeeded in getting the message across, the person I'm trying to help demonstrates that I have failed. Badly. Maybe for an ordinary interested collector the best yardstick might be to stick with the type of standards that can be applied to all types of craft work, things like good clean lines, straight lines, parts of a circle, harmony, proportion. The "sure hand". Without getting too esoteric, sticking with these standards is going to give a positive result, even if that positive result is not 100% perfect. However, you're dead right Jean:- the first thing that 99.9% of collectors see is the pamor, and that is very often what they fall in love with, no matter what the rest of the keris looks like. You've used the word "subjective". In my experience the vast bulk of all keris collectors use subjective judgement in evaluating a keris, and since I am an advocate of the "if you like it, its a good keris for you" school, I reckon that subjective judgement is OK. Quite simply, not every keris interested person wants to spend the major part of his life in learning how to correctly evaluate an artifact from a foreign culture. Its more fun just to collect.

21st August 2015, 07:14 PM	#18
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thank you for your reply and I realize the extreme complexity of my question and that the garap and pawakan are two distinct features even if they may often go together. Many kris collectors are deeply interested to learn how to evaluate a kris blade but few are willing to spend the time to study the javanese culture in detail first as this is very difficult and may be too late.... Regards