Please help to identify this dagger

[Tatyana Dianova]

Here is a mysterious short sword/large dagger. Its blade has three fullers; the handle is made of wood, decorated with steel nails; the coastguard and ‘pommel’ are steel too. The scabbard is original to the blade: black leather over wood, made exactly like Kukri scabbards.
I haven’t seen anything like this before. To me it looks like an Oriental version of yataghan rifle bayonet, with Afghani guard and Nepali scabbard :-) Any comments are extremely welcome.

[Tatyana Dianova]

Sorry, seems to be the wrong Forum...

[David]

I''ll move it.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Tatyana,
Interesting dagger, but why do you think you started at the wrong forum in the first place?
I can't help you at the moment, but will try to have a look in my books, to see if they can come up with an answer.
Jens

[DhaDha]

Nepali and nice, I think. I've seen kukris with the same style nails in the handle. The fullers also remind me of a Tin Chirra (Tinchira) kukri blade. I can dig up photos of both if you like...

What is the wrap around the handle made out of? Leather?

[inveterate]

Afghani ?

[Tatyana Dianova]

Hi all and thank you for the feedback.
Jens, I have erroneously put this thread on the Keris Forum. I was simply looking through its entries and started the new thread there – thank you David for moving the thread :-) My books gave me no answer; I hope that you, Jens, will be luckier :-)
The scabbard looks absolutely Nepali, so I can easily agree with DhaDha and his Nepali attribution, but similar blade and handle photos of Nepali pieces will be much appreciated. Are there any guesses concerning dagger age? The handle is made of one piece of rosewood and is not wrapped in any way. The cross pattern is simply cut in this wood.
Inveterate, I believe I’ve seen once a late 19th century Afghani short sword (similar to military issue) with similar cross guard, but since I have no pictures, I can be wrong…

[inveterate]

Tatyana, I have a pic or two somewhere of similar blade styles purporting to be Afghan pieces...another thing that leads me to my Afghan guess is the Nepali type scabbard these were certainly made in Afghanistan for Afghan made Kukri...of course just hunch's. Cheers Rod

[Tatyana Dianova]

Hi Rod,
I have never heard about Afghani Kukris… It would be very nice if you will post some examples of them here, as well as the mentioned Afghani pieces. I often rely on the general feeling too when attributing pieces, but knowledge is better

[DhaDha]

Inveterate, I think your hunches are pretty good. I also see the Afghani styles at work. Well, now that you mention it

When I first looked at this one it reminded me of this:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=nepali+bowie

Attached is a pic of a Kukri with similar fullers.

Could be a combo of different cultures...

[inveterate]

Tatyana, As a result of my complete technical ineptitude I have never worked out how to post pics on this Forum, if you PM me your email address I will be happy to send you some pics of Afghan Kukri with blade styles showing similarities to that which you have shown , alternatively you could search Afghan on the www.ikrhs.com forum. Cheers Rod

[Tatyana Dianova]

Thank you for sharing this beautiful Kukri, DhaDha!
Well, I have a similar old North Indian Kukri, discussed previously here
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5908
but it looks and feels a bit different than the dagger in question… But you are right: it is definitely an example of cultural mix…

[Jens Nordlunde]

Sorry Tatyana, I have had no luck so far, but I feel sure I have seen a blade like the one you show, so I will go on looking.
Your dagger also gives me the feeling of north India and the boarding areas, but I am not sure where.
Jens

[Tim Simmons]

I had two of these with clear Nepalese possibly Tibetan stye scabbards. The blades were not as fancy but the same shape. Sadly the pictures are gone. A Canandian member known as "Jimpul" was the recipient of one perhaps he might be encouraged to post pictures if he still has it. The other one went to a non member.

[Tatyana Dianova]

I am very grateful for your help and efforts, many thanks The pictures would be extremely useful...
Here is the picture of Afghani Kukris that Rod has kindly sent me today.

[DhaDha]

Definitely see the Afghan influence. These are all really nice pieces. Glad to see them.

[Jim McDougall]

Tatyana, it is wonderful to see you posting here again ! It seems like a very long time. A very attractive piece you have here, and the hilt is most interesting with the studded nail effect, reminds me of the Indian armour 'coat of a thousand nails'.

While I agree with the assessments toward the kukri genre, and that this does seem a hybrid form of weapon, I cannot help thinking of the variants of short swords that were seen in research years ago on what was then termed a Kurdish/Armenian yataghan. These were later termed 'Black Sea Knives' and were typically seen with horned pommel, the blade of more dramatic recurve and needle pointed much as the flyssa and Tatar ordynka's.
Later Ariel discovered these were actually termed 'Laz Bichagi' and from Ottoman regions in the mid to latter 19th century.

In the 1941 article, "Development of the Shashka" by Triikman & Jacobsen published in Copenhagen, there are a number of these recurved weapons illustrated as recurved 'yataghan' type swords, some with the horned pommel, some with standard hilt forms,but the recurve of the blade was distinct, and it seems the fullering was somewhat similar on some.

These were apparantly included in the work of a Hungarian author in an 1898 (?) narrative in which he described these groupings of 'Trancaucasian' swords using the term 'kardok' or something to that effect.
It has been years since I have seen this material, and I will try to see if I can retrace, but the images are somewhat vaguely seen in memory.

I cannot be certain, but even that fishtail pommel may have been on one.
I'll try to find the notes or info, and hopefully they 'made the cut' when we loaded into the bookmobile

In any case, I think this may possibly be one of this type of quite rarely found Transcaucasian weapons.

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

Hi Rod,
I have never heard about Afghani Kukris… It would be very nice if you will post some examples of them here, as well as the mentioned Afghani pieces. I often rely on the general feeling too when attributing pieces, but knowledge is better

I must say I have never really been aware of Afghan kukris either, but such examples I would imagine would be esoteric enough for knowledge of them to be relegated to those who study and specialize in kukris. I am wondering if these would be related to the 1880's-turn of the century, when the Afghan government began to adopt many British influences, especially in military fashion. In fact, now that I think of it, those distinct Afghan military swords with European style hilts of the 1880's that were used into the 20th century, also had this deep and dramatic fullering.
I suppose that would present some support for the Afghan attribution as well as the other features noted in the thread.
The Afghan army was not only wearing British 'Albert' helmets, but some wearing kilts as well! It does not seem unlikely that the kukri of the famed Gurkha units would not be of some influence also.

I still cannot get the Transcaucasian thoughts out of my mind though!
So far the only such examples I have found have had some type of either splayed or horned pommel hilts, with which the splayed form does not entirely discount the 'fishtail' effect.

All best regards,
Jim

[Tatyana Dianova]

Jim, it is really an exiting and wonderful Trancaucasian theory! It would be very interesting if you will find something in your books. Thank you a lot!
I wasn’t posting for a long time because I wasn’t able to upload any pictures… This month I have finally changed my Internet provider – and now upload works!!!
Rod has sent me today another interesting picture of ‘a few Kukri with cross guards, these are early tourist pieces (1920-1940) from Northern India’

[Tatyana Dianova]

I have another large and heavy unknown dagger with recurving blade. I thought I will start later a separate thread about it, but maybe it is relevant to the dagger in question. Handle is bone, rosettes – copper, there is a rest for a thumb on the top of the handle. The dagger has a full tang, and this tang is very thick

[Phil]

Tatyana,
Concerning your first dagger: here’s another example which was (probably still is) on Oriental-Arms. Said to be “early to mid 19 C. and it comes from North India”.

[ariel]

Tatiana,
So good to see you back! You always bring such unconventional things!
As to you dagger with bone handle and para-i-tutti-ish blade, I couldn't help but notice a very peculiar bolster: kind of "staircase-like" ( for want of a better comparison).
It eerily reminds me of Adya Katti, from Coorg/ Malabar area.
Here is a reference to it from Artzi's collection and every other example he has on his site shows the same thing ( just go over them):
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1520
What would we do without Artzi/Avner's site?

[Tatyana Dianova]

Almost all unconventional pieces seem to be pretty late, and some of them are simply composite pieces… Anyway, it is interesting to know where the parts or influences come from… Sometimes it is pretty difficult, as it is for example with a Shashka with a cross-guard, which was posted recently by Ariel.
Today I have visited the old castle in Loket, Czech Republik, and at the castle museum I have seen an old yataghan with a recurving blade, which seems to be of European origin
Are there any other ‘ladder’ bolsters around, except Adya Katti???

[ariel]

http://ww2.ru/forum/index.php?act=at...post&id=382667
http://ww2.ru/forum/index.php?act=at...post&id=382672
http://ww2.ru/forum/index.php?act=at...post&id=382679
Here are pics from another forum: Zlatoust-made yataghan from a Russian museum. Apparently, it has bulat ( wootz) blade

[Tatyana Dianova]

Ariel, the Russian forum requires 'signing-in'... Can you post these pictures here?

[ariel]

Here they are

I apologize: the blade is the so-called Turkish Ribbon, not real wootz.