As promised: Ottoman Sultan/ Viking sword

ariel · 14th December 2016, 10:18 PM

Please refer to:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...e+viking+sword

And this is its twin, not sold for a paltry sum of $1899.

ariel · 14th December 2016, 10:19 PM

#2

ariel · 14th December 2016, 10:36 PM

And the description:
"Ottoman or Viking?

Must of you are wondering if this is a replica viking sword from one of the modern brands in the market? It is not.
It is probably one of the rarest ottoman swords in history. Please analyze the visible microstructure of grains composition of the blade.
During hundreds of years persians worked the famous "Crucible Steel" for the Vikings Clans. Read about the Viking's Volga Trade Route to Persia.
More details about this sword, it keeps an interesting wooden scabbard with silver and bronze pieces as decorations, probably from a diferent origin or time period, don't know much about it yet but it fits the sword very well & tight, wood has small cracks but nothing serious, it is still in good condition.
I will ask you, experts on the field to search and try to date this sword. The hilt is finely chiseled over solid bronze, see in the pictures the tools markings ( looks like an early handwork). If I don't get wrong, a similar example of an ottoman viking style sword, was sold by Chriestie's last month in a hudge incredible price, showing the same hilt with the same romboidal tools markings as this one.
Blade shows worn areas, rust spots and edge deformations from age but it is still straight and flexible.
I will appreciate any professional support because this sword is still an enigma to me.
A great sword to study. Any other details you need, just ask me, I will be able to help.
Sold as it came to me.
(SOLD AS IS)
Please, no returns and thanks for your attention. "

iskender · 15th December 2016, 12:52 AM

gentlemen,should i bite on my tongue or burn my fingers ? a few years ago i found a old sword oakeshott typ XI with a horngrip and pommel, blade with black underwaterpatina in a good condition still flexible ! i have connections to a well-known historical museum, where i presented the objekt to the curator of arms. he told me it is to old for him to jugde it and left if over to the curators of the antique to give a opinion. a half a year later i got it back together with the statement that this was the best preserved sword from the 12 century they have ever seen. in the meantime i now now that it was made in tunis and never so old as they told me! the same i think is with your sword,certainly of age but in my opinion and looking at the way old bronce ages ,first to red or brown and similar colours then going in to a mix of/or green /blue/black, it think it will turn out that the grip is perhabs 19 century and is made in that what they called the "barbarei " in old times. will be interesting what the experts say! greetings and a good day to you all Iskender

TVV · 15th December 2016, 01:18 AM

Iskender, the grip is actually of late 20th century manufacture at the earliest, just like the blade. Ariel is simply having fun with the listing. We need the occasional fun thread at times, it can't be all serious scholarly research

.

Teodor

iskender · 15th December 2016, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Iskender, the grip is actually of late 20th century manufacture at the earliest, just like the blade. Ariel is simply having fun with the listing. We need the occasional fun thread at times, it can't be all serious scholarly research

.

Teodor

is that what is called "Trolling" good joke ,i like that!

iskender

TVV · 16th December 2016, 12:42 AM

I would not call it trolling, not at all. Ariel is just sharing with us a seller's listing from the most popular online auction site. There are of course a lot of ridiculous listings there, but some simply stand out, like this particular one. It is also a good reminder that we need to rely on our own knowledge and research, and not on sellers' descriptions. Especially when it comes to ultra rare Viking/Ottoman broadswords.

Teodor

iskender · 16th December 2016, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

I would not call it trolling, not at all. Ariel is just sharing with us a seller's listing from the most popular online auction site. There are of course a lot of ridiculous listings there, but some simply stand out, like this particular one. It is also a good reminder that we need to rely on our own knowledge and research, and not on sellers' descriptions. Especially when it comes to ultra rare Viking/Ottoman broadswords.

Teodor

the word " trolling" was not meant serious !

it was meant somehow in the direction of the " Pigfish "

i just ran in a open knife ! i take this with humor ! we call that " Grundlagenirrtum " ! greetigs and a good day to you ! alexander

ariel · 9th January 2017, 10:35 AM

Just a final note. The seller was obviously disturbed by my question about the authenticity of this sword and wanted to prove that he was right and I was wrong.
Thus, I just got a message from him ( his name removed):

------------------------------

New message from: ...........(73Blue Star)

Two weeks ago I've sent the pictures of this sword to a well known auction house in England and the sword is from the late byzantine period. It is known as Varangian guard sword, were vikings in service for the byzantine empire. One of the historians of the mentioned auction house purchased the sword for $4500 two days ago in ebay. Just wanted you to know it was an ancient sword.

Thanks and
"Happy new year"
----------------------------------

Well, good for him and for the auction house.

See you at Sotheby's or Christie:-)

Lee · 9th January 2017, 10:55 AM

The most frightening thing of all is that the seller's recent message may well be entirely truthful in the detail about an auction house expert buying the sword.

mariusgmioc · 9th January 2017, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

The most frightening thing of all is that the seller's recent message may well be entirely truthful in the detail about an auction house expert buying the sword.

So much about auction houses "experts!"

Anyhow, it wouldn't be a first as I have seen on too many occasions obvious modern replicas selling as genuine antique blades for extortionately high prices... and with reputed auction houses.

Ian · 11th January 2017, 06:13 AM

The information provided here is a perfect set up for a con.

The Virangian were real soldiers in the service of the Emperor of the Byzantine Empire. They were mainly Germanic and Norsemen, with a few Rus thrown in. That all has a factual basis. But the swords of these elite soldiers, what did they really look like? And that's the opening a forger can exploit.

What are the odds that we see more "Virangian swords" coming on the market based on old patterns of Viking, German or Russian swords?

Caveat emptor indeed!!!

Jim McDougall · 11th January 2017, 11:37 PM

As well noted by Ian, this topic is pretty dangerous, especially with a description presented in eloquent text peppered with impressive though vague references to historic figures and empires.
I can recall one query asking, "what kind of swords did the Byzantines use?".

Naturally trying to describe the spectrum of swords here would look like Stones volume! as that empire lasted well over a millennia and covered more of the then known world than describable without itemizing each region and time frame.

Even the description of 'Varangians' is profoundly vague as it was a term describing Vikings used by Greeks and Eastern Slavs covering several centuries and regionally diverse to include Rus and others as well.

I would definitely be wary of swords with descriptions using these kinds of terms. Speaking of that, one of these interesting hilts once appeared in a prominent auction paired with a Sudanese blade. It was apparently quite convincing as it sold I believe, perhaps primarily for the impressive blade.

Iain · 12th January 2017, 04:14 PM

This is the Sudanese fake with the same hilt Jim mentions was this one. It sold at Christie's for quite a large sum as I recall.

14th December 2016, 10:18 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As promised: Ottoman Sultan/ Viking sword Please refer to: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...e+viking+sword And this is its twin, not sold for a paltry sum of $1899. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 14th December 2016 at 10:38 PM.

15th December 2016, 12:52 AM	#4
iskender Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 60	patina of old bronce ? gentlemen,should i bite on my tongue or burn my fingers ? a few years ago i found a old sword oakeshott typ XI with a horngrip and pommel, blade with black underwaterpatina in a good condition still flexible ! i have connections to a well-known historical museum, where i presented the objekt to the curator of arms. he told me it is to old for him to jugde it and left if over to the curators of the antique to give a opinion. a half a year later i got it back together with the statement that this was the best preserved sword from the 12 century they have ever seen. in the meantime i now now that it was made in tunis and never so old as they told me! the same i think is with your sword,certainly of age but in my opinion and looking at the way old bronce ages ,first to red or brown and similar colours then going in to a mix of/or green /blue/black, it think it will turn out that the grip is perhabs 19 century and is made in that what they called the "barbarei " in old times. will be interesting what the experts say! greetings and a good day to you all Iskender

9th January 2017, 10:55 AM	#10
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Well, good for him... The most frightening thing of all is that the seller's recent message may well be entirely truthful in the detail about an auction house expert buying the sword.

12th January 2017, 04:14 PM	#14
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	This is the Sudanese fake with the same hilt Jim mentions was this one. It sold at Christie's for quite a large sum as I recall. Attached Images

14th December 2016, 10:19 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	#2 Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 14th December 2016 at 10:33 PM.

14th December 2016, 10:36 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And the description: "Ottoman or Viking? Must of you are wondering if this is a replica viking sword from one of the modern brands in the market? It is not. It is probably one of the rarest ottoman swords in history. Please analyze the visible microstructure of grains composition of the blade. During hundreds of years persians worked the famous "Crucible Steel" for the Vikings Clans. Read about the Viking's Volga Trade Route to Persia. More details about this sword, it keeps an interesting wooden scabbard with silver and bronze pieces as decorations, probably from a diferent origin or time period, don't know much about it yet but it fits the sword very well & tight, wood has small cracks but nothing serious, it is still in good condition. I will ask you, experts on the field to search and try to date this sword. The hilt is finely chiseled over solid bronze, see in the pictures the tools markings ( looks like an early handwork). If I don't get wrong, a similar example of an ottoman viking style sword, was sold by Chriestie's last month in a hudge incredible price, showing the same hilt with the same romboidal tools markings as this one. Blade shows worn areas, rust spots and edge deformations from age but it is still straight and flexible. I will appreciate any professional support because this sword is still an enigma to me. A great sword to study. Any other details you need, just ask me, I will be able to help. Sold as it came to me. (SOLD AS IS) Please, no returns and thanks for your attention. "

15th December 2016, 01:18 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Iskender, the grip is actually of late 20th century manufacture at the earliest, just like the blade. Ariel is simply having fun with the listing. We need the occasional fun thread at times, it can't be all serious scholarly research . Teodor

16th December 2016, 12:42 AM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	I would not call it trolling, not at all. Ariel is just sharing with us a seller's listing from the most popular online auction site. There are of course a lot of ridiculous listings there, but some simply stand out, like this particular one. It is also a good reminder that we need to rely on our own knowledge and research, and not on sellers' descriptions. Especially when it comes to ultra rare Viking/Ottoman broadswords. Teodor

9th January 2017, 10:35 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just a final note. The seller was obviously disturbed by my question about the authenticity of this sword and wanted to prove that he was right and I was wrong. Thus, I just got a message from him ( his name removed): ------------------------------ New message from: ...........(73Blue Star) Two weeks ago I've sent the pictures of this sword to a well known auction house in England and the sword is from the late byzantine period. It is known as Varangian guard sword, were vikings in service for the byzantine empire. One of the historians of the mentioned auction house purchased the sword for $4500 two days ago in ebay. Just wanted you to know it was an ancient sword. Thanks and "Happy new year" ---------------------------------- Well, good for him and for the auction house. See you at Sotheby's or Christie:-)

11th January 2017, 06:13 AM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	The information provided here is a perfect set up for a con. The Virangian were real soldiers in the service of the Emperor of the Byzantine Empire. They were mainly Germanic and Norsemen, with a few Rus thrown in. That all has a factual basis. But the swords of these elite soldiers, what did they really look like? And that's the opening a forger can exploit. What are the odds that we see more "Virangian swords" coming on the market based on old patterns of Viking, German or Russian swords? Caveat emptor indeed!!!

11th January 2017, 11:37 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	As well noted by Ian, this topic is pretty dangerous, especially with a description presented in eloquent text peppered with impressive though vague references to historic figures and empires. I can recall one query asking, "what kind of swords did the Byzantines use?". Naturally trying to describe the spectrum of swords here would look like Stones volume! as that empire lasted well over a millennia and covered more of the then known world than describable without itemizing each region and time frame. Even the description of 'Varangians' is profoundly vague as it was a term describing Vikings used by Greeks and Eastern Slavs covering several centuries and regionally diverse to include Rus and others as well. I would definitely be wary of swords with descriptions using these kinds of terms. Speaking of that, one of these interesting hilts once appeared in a prominent auction paired with a Sudanese blade. It was apparently quite convincing as it sold I believe, perhaps primarily for the impressive blade.