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#1 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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Hullo!
Here's my newest treasure...my last one (the afar jile) didn't turn out too well...so this lifted my spirits. A maasai seme, forged and 68 cm long, so a good sword size. As I undertand it from past discussions, this particular type is not all that old, but at least pre-1950s...is this correct? For comparison I post another seme cut from a Martindale machete (thanks Tim, I still really like it ![]() I'd very much appreciate comments. Emanuel |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 2,653
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Hi Emanuel,
I followed this and forgot to bid ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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#3 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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Thanks David,
I'm glad you didn't bid ![]() I'll port more pics when I get it. Best, Emanuel |
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#4 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
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I'M NOT...... ![]() ![]() Emanuel, I'm not certain...but I think the so called 'Lion spear' with the 'Same' type head were a late 19c/ early 20c 'addition'. I have always had the impression that the 'Same' pre-dated this type of spear. Then again, I could be wrong ........so nothing new there then ![]() ![]() |
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#5 |
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Could be, David...I'll read up on it...can't wait to get it
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#6 |
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,222
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Dear all,
What do you think. Is this sword masai ? I sold it some 2 years ago as masai although I was not sure at all as info was hard to find here. Thanks and best regards, Willem |
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#7 |
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Hello Willem,
Yours does look like a maasai seme...the handle is interesting though...have a look here : http://anthro.amnh.org/anthro.html in the Collections Database, then in the "African Ethnographic Collection" and search for maasai. I just received mine, but the sword is really wedged in tightly in the scabbard. Are there any ways to loosen a scabbard? Would applying abundent oil do it? Emanuel |
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#8 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 181
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#9 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 3,191
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Hi Willem
That is an older Massai war sword they have longer blades. Here are two from my collection. Btw your shield looks be from the Turkana tribe. Lew |
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#10 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 58
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I uncovered several prints from the 1800's illustrating several seemingly similar sword types that most would identify as a "seme." But in fact range in a wide geo-cultural area. The one on the lower left has rings built into which is a characteristic of the watuta tribe, a branch of the Nagoni. I would also need to see it sheathed to confirm this. Watuta swords frequently (not always) exhibit a neck protrusion of 1-2 inches that are not covered by the sheath. Furthermore, sheath color confirms this fact. East african swords need to be analyzed in terms of forging techniques such as tip shape, cross section (a very complicated subject), hilt style, sheath style, sheath color, sheath and belt motif. These swords were made and used among too many tribal groups to list. some are: Maasai- Each maasai group has a different style of sword. There are at least 15 Maasai groups. Some Maasai groups actually work in blacksmithing after they were forced to adopt agriculture after the 2nd and 3rd Iloikop wars and the rinderpest epidemic of the 1890's. Kikuyu Chagga Luo Watuta Ngoni Sambaru Last edited by RomaRana; 26th February 2007 at 01:05 AM. |
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#11 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 58
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Manolo,
The seme you posted dates at least to 1935. This is because the development of this type of sword was probably related to the spear and weapons ordinance introduced by the British to quell the "warrior" culture of many tribal groups. The ban lasted from 1935-1955 and did a great deal of damage to the blacksmithing culture in the region as evidenced by a drop in quality of the blades from the older type. |
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#12 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,893
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Outstanding information RomaRama!!!!
![]() It is great to have such detailed data on these little discussed swords, which are most intriguing. Is there special significance to the red coloring on the scabbards? Best regards, Jim |
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#13 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 58
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The red scabbards are of great significance to the Maasai. The coming of the Maasai into East Africa during the Nilotic Diaspora is recorded and dated in Kikuyu oral tradition around 1750 to 1775.
This first contact and age was deemed by Routledge as the "Red Ochre Fad." Before this period there is no mention of red ochre in Kikuyu oral history, therefore the Maasai probably brought red ochre with them to the area. This historical evidence shows that the Maasai used red as one of their tribal signifiers as far back as the 1700's. Many consider sheath color as a primary means of dating East African swords (Brown sheaths are older red newer) but the evidence suggests otherwise. Furthermore, I have in my possession a color page printed by the Bibliogr. Institut in Lepzig in 1880. Using my antique manuscript page I noticed that two swords most would identify as Maasai were depicted side by side. They were dyed in different colors, one in red identified as Maasai and the other in brown identified as Watuta. This revelation blew the color age theory out of the water as both red and brown scabbards were historically illustrated simultaneously as of 1880. But Maasai tribal group iconography further confuses this matter. The intensity of ochre and its symbolism is of great importance to the Maasai. Some sections prefer a reddish brown while others prefer a sanguine blood red. For example the Kisongo Maasai dislike bright reds because of its similarity to blood. This variation is easy to see in the older long sword type sheaths. Where I am stumped is why so many newer swords exhibit an almost universal (not completely) blood red dye. I have my theories but they cannot be backed up by evidence as of yet. |
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#14 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,893
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Hi RomaRana,
Thank you very much for the most interesting data on the use of red coloring on these scabbards. I had previously wondered about the significance of red used on various weapons in various cultures, and earlier attempts at discussing produced little information, so I very much appreciate the detail you have added here. It seems material I have seen does not present much detail on this aspect of the Maasai weapons, and I look forward to hearing more on your theory. Very best regards, Jim |
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#15 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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RomaRana,
Many thanks for the extensive info. While I had understood that the long, slender ribbed blades where of an older, forged type, I had the impression that fully red hide indicated newer work than the brown hides. Good to hear that both were used at earlier dates. I wonder about the current Maasai culture. Do they still have any conceivable need for the long fighting blades? The machete types are purely tools and for cutting vegetation I imagine, while spears are for keeping away any dangerous animals, no? Regards, Emanuel |
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