Please help on an Islamic sword

fernando · 21st October 2006, 04:06 PM

Please Gentlemen, i need as much help as i can, on this piece.
I don't even know how to name it. The blade is 14" ( 35 cms. ) long.
The mountings are both copper and brass, apart from the scabbard mid section in velvet ... all looking original. The blade has no damage.
The inscriptions in both blade sides look ( just look ) Arabic to me.
The seller had previously mentioned that, the shape of the scabbard tip was intended to look like something, but i don't remember what, maybe because i got skeptical about it.
I kindly ask for your coments, both identifying the piece and the inscription script type or translation.
Thanks in advance
fernando

fernando · 21st October 2006, 04:09 PM

one more

S.Al-Anizi · 21st October 2006, 04:16 PM

Looks like an Indian dagger made in an arab hejazi style to me.

fernando · 21st October 2006, 05:12 PM

Thank you S.Al-Anizi
Any idea of what is written in the inscriptions? Maker's mark, Owner's name, verses of the Quran ?

Robert · 21st October 2006, 09:42 PM

The end of the scabbard reminds me of the decorative covers I've seen used on the end of elephants tusk.

Jim McDougall · 22nd October 2006, 03:18 AM

Hi S.
If I can recall correctly, are these Hejaz daggers termed 'sabaki' ?
I agree this does appear to be of Indian production, especially with the familiar velvet on the scabbard.
Best regards,
Jim

Andrew · 22nd October 2006, 03:48 AM

The koftgari looks pristine, Fernando. Did the seller provide you with any provenance or an estimate of age?

S.Al-Anizi · 22nd October 2006, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi S.
If I can recall correctly, are these Hejaz daggers termed 'sabaki' ?
I agree this does appear to be of Indian production, especially with the familiar velvet on the scabbard.
Best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim,

I do not know alot about daggers as I do about the swords. I must research more into terminology on my next trip to Riyadh

Regards,

Al-Anizi

S.Al-Anizi · 22nd October 2006, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you S.Al-Anizi
Any idea of what is written in the inscriptions? Maker's mark, Owner's name, verses of the Quran ?

Sorry fernando, I cant make a word out of that. It could be urdu, or one of the many languages that use the arabic script.

fernando · 22nd October 2006, 04:03 PM

Thank you all for your postings.
Robert, i remember now that the seller associated the scabbard end to a certain poisonous snake, but i don't think he had a strong basis. I well understand your relating this part to the elephant tusk ornaments.
Hi Jim, great info, as usual. I will search into Sabaki.
I confess my ignorance, as not being able to look at this specimen and distinguish which parts are of Indian ( Islamic ? ) influence, and which have an Arabian ( Hejazi ) shape, as i have no basics to judge it. A little help would be much wellcome.
Thank you Andrew, for your kind coments on he koftgary work. These inscriptions were the strongest factor which opened my pocket, to pay an absurd price for this piece. No, the Seller doesn't know its provenance. He bought in auction with an Arms lot. He remembers having concluded that these were kept well stored in the same place for three generations, and this dagger would be from the 3/4 19th century ... but all very abstract.
The more direct sign to its age use is the velvet section, with its comb worn off, and the one only worm hole through cloth and wood.
I am dying to know what kind of wording is these inscriptions.
Kind regards

fernando · 22nd October 2006, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Al-Anizi

Sorry fernando, I cant make a word out of that. It could be urdu, or one of the many languages that use the arabic script.

Thank you anyway for your help, S. Al-Anizi.

Jim McDougall · 23rd October 2006, 03:25 AM

Hi Fernando,
It seems to me that Elgood notes in his book "Arms & Armour of Arabia" that on the janbiyya scabbard, the bulb at the tip represented a garlic bulb and was termed 'thum' if memory serves. Now if that was a scabbard from out here in the west, that bulby thing would be a dead ringer for a rattler (nasty critters!)

S., thank you!

All best regards,
Jim

fernando · 25th October 2006, 09:55 PM

Thank you again Jim.
Now i know i can consider this piece as of the janbiyya range. I have an Yemeni janbiyya with a traditional shape, and i wouldn't risk to associate both specimens without help. I will also surely buy Elgoods book, if it is available.
As an unitiated collector i can understand the seller's own conclusion on the scabbard end shape of this piece he sold me. Morphologicly speaking, it would quicker resemble a cobra head ( not tail ), than a garlic bulb ... even Asian . I will have to learn some more about the origins of this so particular atribution.
All the best for you and your family.
Hi Al-Anizi, are you there ? I am still strugling with the inscription decoding.
Could you tell me the right direction of the text? I think the pictures i posted here are in the wrong position. Should i turn the hilt upwards, or the blade ?
Thanks in advance.
Kind regards.
fernando

Hrthuma ibn Marwan · 26th October 2006, 03:02 AM

Its not a Jimbiya correct? It kind of has close shapes.
I dont know, but the shape of the dagger looks of Arabian origin.

The letters are Arabic, but it is more in calligraphy form which is complex to read. The only that I am sure of is "Allah".

Hope this helps

Tim Simmons · 26th October 2006, 06:32 PM

I do not know much about Arabian weapons. I just post this Kurdish? dagger as the blade form, curve, and decorated section are so very similar. I do know a little about Arabian silver/metalwork and I do not think the scabbard and hilt are Yemin and I am not at sure it is Arabian.

fernando · 26th October 2006, 09:27 PM

Thank you Hrthuma for the help.
I have learnt that some times these inscriptions are made with a strong decoration style, by blade smiths who are not fluent in Arabic, or even non Arab speacking. They do the letters by copying them from another piece, or from a written text. I am glad that you can read the word Allah in it , its already a start. In this case you could also tell me if you find the letters in my pictures in the correct position, or should i rotate them upwards or downwards? Thanks again.
Hi tim, thanks for your remarks.
Nice piece of yours ... indeed similar blade shape and decoration.
If i well understood up to now, the materials and detail work used to make this scabbard , are typical of India ( Hindu or Muslim, i wish i knew ), however with an overall shape to look like an ( Hejazi ) Arab dagger, or janbiyya, in the broad sense of the word ... not much to do with the more often referred janbiyyas from Yemen or Oman, with their peculiar shape .
Same goes for the blade ... if indeed it was forged in India, could have an Indian shape, and probably its decoration was made at same time and local, and also probably with a text destinated to an Arabian client.
It looks like i still have a long way to go, to find or be told something more specific about this weapon, passing by the inscription decoding.
The sure thing is that it costed me lots of fish and ships portions.
Kind regards
fernando

S.Al-Anizi · 26th October 2006, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Al-Anizi, are you there ? I am still strugling with the inscription decoding.
Could you tell me the right direction of the text? I think the pictures i posted here are in the wrong position. Should i turn the hilt upwards, or the blade ?
Thanks in advance.
Kind regards.
fernando

Sorry Fernando I took a long time to reply, I was busy with eid and all that. Anyway, you should photograph the dagger tip up with the hilt downwards. The inscription goes from right to left (naturally), and from top to bottom.

fernando · 26th October 2006, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Al-Anizi

Sorry Fernando I took a long time to reply, I was busy with eid and all that. Anyway, you should photograph the dagger tip up with the hilt downwards. The inscription goes from right to left (naturally), and from top to bottom.

Thank you very much indeed. That is vital for me.
All the best for you
fernando

Hrthuma ibn Marwan · 28th October 2006, 05:51 PM

Fernando, like S.Al-Anizi said, you should position the dagger with the tip of the blade facing upwards, and the hilt facing south.

But also as you said:

Quote:

I have learnt that some times these inscriptions are made with a strong decoration style, by blade smiths who are not fluent in Arabic, or even non Arab speacking. They do the letters by copying them from another piece, or from a written text.

That makes reading alot harder heh.

Good luck

21st October 2006, 04:06 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Please help on an Islamic sword Please Gentlemen, i need as much help as i can, on this piece. I don't even know how to name it. The blade is 14" ( 35 cms. ) long. The mountings are both copper and brass, apart from the scabbard mid section in velvet ... all looking original. The blade has no damage. The inscriptions in both blade sides look ( just look ) Arabic to me. The seller had previously mentioned that, the shape of the scabbard tip was intended to look like something, but i don't remember what, maybe because i got skeptical about it. I kindly ask for your coments, both identifying the piece and the inscription script type or translation. Thanks in advance fernando Attached Images

21st October 2006, 04:09 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	one more Attached Images

22nd October 2006, 04:03 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Indian made, Hejazi style Thank you all for your postings. Robert, i remember now that the seller associated the scabbard end to a certain poisonous snake, but i don't think he had a strong basis. I well understand your relating this part to the elephant tusk ornaments. Hi Jim, great info, as usual. I will search into Sabaki. I confess my ignorance, as not being able to look at this specimen and distinguish which parts are of Indian ( Islamic ? ) influence, and which have an Arabian ( Hejazi ) shape, as i have no basics to judge it. A little help would be much wellcome. Thank you Andrew, for your kind coments on he koftgary work. These inscriptions were the strongest factor which opened my pocket, to pay an absurd price for this piece. No, the Seller doesn't know its provenance. He bought in auction with an Arms lot. He remembers having concluded that these were kept well stored in the same place for three generations, and this dagger would be from the 3/4 19th century ... but all very abstract. The more direct sign to its age use is the velvet section, with its comb worn off, and the one only worm hole through cloth and wood. I am dying to know what kind of wording is these inscriptions. Kind regards Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 22nd October 2006 at 09:40 PM.

21st October 2006, 04:16 PM	#3
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Looks like an Indian dagger made in an arab hejazi style to me.

21st October 2006, 05:12 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you S.Al-Anizi Any idea of what is written in the inscriptions? Maker's mark, Owner's name, verses of the Quran ?

21st October 2006, 09:42 PM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	The end of the scabbard reminds me of the decorative covers I've seen used on the end of elephants tusk.

22nd October 2006, 03:18 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Hi S. If I can recall correctly, are these Hejaz daggers termed 'sabaki' ? I agree this does appear to be of Indian production, especially with the familiar velvet on the scabbard. Best regards, Jim

22nd October 2006, 03:48 AM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	The koftgari looks pristine, Fernando. Did the seller provide you with any provenance or an estimate of age?

23rd October 2006, 03:25 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Hi Fernando, It seems to me that Elgood notes in his book "Arms & Armour of Arabia" that on the janbiyya scabbard, the bulb at the tip represented a garlic bulb and was termed 'thum' if memory serves. Now if that was a scabbard from out here in the west, that bulby thing would be a dead ringer for a rattler (nasty critters!) S., thank you! All best regards, Jim

25th October 2006, 09:55 PM	#13
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you again Jim. Now i know i can consider this piece as of the janbiyya range. I have an Yemeni janbiyya with a traditional shape, and i wouldn't risk to associate both specimens without help. I will also surely buy Elgoods book, if it is available. As an unitiated collector i can understand the seller's own conclusion on the scabbard end shape of this piece he sold me. Morphologicly speaking, it would quicker resemble a cobra head ( not tail ), than a garlic bulb ... even Asian . I will have to learn some more about the origins of this so particular atribution. All the best for you and your family. Hi Al-Anizi, are you there ? I am still strugling with the inscription decoding. Could you tell me the right direction of the text? I think the pictures i posted here are in the wrong position. Should i turn the hilt upwards, or the blade ? Thanks in advance. Kind regards. fernando

26th October 2006, 03:02 AM	#14
Hrthuma ibn Marwan Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: in my study Posts: 18	Its not a Jimbiya correct? It kind of has close shapes. I dont know, but the shape of the dagger looks of Arabian origin. The letters are Arabic, but it is more in calligraphy form which is complex to read. The only that I am sure of is "Allah". Hope this helps

26th October 2006, 06:32 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I do not know much about Arabian weapons. I just post this Kurdish? dagger as the blade form, curve, and decorated section are so very similar. I do know a little about Arabian silver/metalwork and I do not think the scabbard and hilt are Yemin and I am not at sure it is Arabian.

26th October 2006, 09:27 PM	#16
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Hrthuma for the help. I have learnt that some times these inscriptions are made with a strong decoration style, by blade smiths who are not fluent in Arabic, or even non Arab speacking. They do the letters by copying them from another piece, or from a written text. I am glad that you can read the word Allah in it , its already a start. In this case you could also tell me if you find the letters in my pictures in the correct position, or should i rotate them upwards or downwards? Thanks again. Hi tim, thanks for your remarks. Nice piece of yours ... indeed similar blade shape and decoration. If i well understood up to now, the materials and detail work used to make this scabbard , are typical of India ( Hindu or Muslim, i wish i knew ), however with an overall shape to look like an ( Hejazi ) Arab dagger, or janbiyya, in the broad sense of the word ... not much to do with the more often referred janbiyyas from Yemen or Oman, with their peculiar shape . Same goes for the blade ... if indeed it was forged in India, could have an Indian shape, and probably its decoration was made at same time and local, and also probably with a text destinated to an Arabian client. It looks like i still have a long way to go, to find or be told something more specific about this weapon, passing by the inscription decoding. The sure thing is that it costed me lots of fish and ships portions. Kind regards fernando