Minangkabau(?) keris

[ariel]

My main interest is Islamic bladed weapons: from Caucasus and the Ottomans to India. Because I know next to nothing about keris, I humbly beg your forbearance and forgiveness: you are dealing with a newbie, who is far too old to learn new tricks.

Here is a keris that wandered into my home one night and asked for shelter.

I think it is Sumatra, Minangkabau ( if you say it is from Palembang I will not get insulted, too). The handle is made IMHO from a real fossilized elephant molar, not modern plastic fake. It is very heavy, and has a couple of old delaminations that were glued back. All solid now. The blade is straight and used to be covered in heavy black rust and grime. A lot of WD-40 and a touch of paper towels and the finest steel wool revealed that there was a real metal underneath:-) Can't see any pamor and don't want to employ sandpaper etc. I will leave that to the next owner.
The scabbard is covered in silver , with some losses close to the handle, not much, but still... Silver is heavily patinated. Again, I have a supremely gentle silver polish paste, but do not want to spoil the effect of aging. The end of the scabbard has a brass(?) fitting.

Questions:
- am I correct re. Minangkabau?
- age
-value ( not monetary, of course): is this one rare and respectable enough to brag about it, to hug it, and kiss it and to call it George?
- Is the straight blade without traces of pamor legit?
- am I correct re. elephant molar?
- selut looks pretty cheap. Does this keris deserve a new one? Any hints where can I find one?


Many thanks for any help.

Ariel

[ariel]

#2

[Rick]

Ariel, take a shot of the entire keris oriented point up with the greneng to the viewer's right.
Would be very helpful.

I don't get a very good feeling from the fossil molar hilt.
The blade is everything pretty much anyway.

What's with that hole at the end of the gonjo in your top view?

Yeah, looking at the top and edge of the gonjo; it seems made to take a decorative covering.

The distressing of the fittings looks like the work of father time.

[kai]

Hello Ariel,

This is a nice, old/antique Bangkinang blade; what's its size - probably of intermediate size usually called anak alang? These got traded widely across Sumatra and don't really help to narrow down origin. As Rick suggests, it's possible that it once had a sheet of silver covering the exposed part of the gonjo.

Scabbard with silver sheet seems to be antique as well; foot as well as selut are recent replacements. Replacing the selut with a simple one made from silver will certainly benefit the ensemble - not that easy to obtain a fitting example though. The crosspiece is interesting but difficult to place - some more close-ups from both sides and the top may help...

Fossil molar is a really difficult material to work with and many/most examples are recent; quite difficult to establish age with these. What does the base and the hole for the pesi/tang look like without the selut? If it happens to be an old example, one might suggest it pointing to the Jambi area.

BTW, quite some heavy rust left at the base of the blade - this needs a thorough mechanical cleaning to avoid further loss. Bangkinang blades are laminated - the pamor is usually of very low contrast though and does not need any etching.

Regards,
Kai

[Marcokeris]

nice keris .... i post another elephant molar hilt

[Gustav]

Yes, a Minang Keris. Greneng and whole blade base is typically Minang.

Hilt doesn't look so bad. The light colour is a good sign, because the newer ones are almost always chemically treated to enhance the colours.

Would let it as it is, except the blade rust. It is a honest, good specimen of its kind. Nice to have such more elaborated crosspiece of sheath.

Buntut (the end peace of sheath stem) being made from different material (I mean also metal of different colours as in this case) is not unusual with this type, actually it is quite often seen, also Pendokok corresponding with Buntut.

It is a pure speculation, yet I suppose the sleeve that once covered the back of Gonjo was the same colour as Pendokok. Never have seen an old silver one.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Yes, a Minang Keris. Greneng and whole blade base is typically Minang.

Hilt doesn't look so bad. The light colour is a good sign, because the newer ones are almost always chemically treated to enhance the colours.

Would let it as it is, except the blade rust. It is a honest, good specimen of its kind. Nice to have such more elaborated crosspiece of sheath.

Buntut (the end peace of sheath stem) being made from different material (I mean also metal of different colours as in this case) is not unusual with this type, actually it is quite often seen, also Pendokok corresponding with Buntut.

It is a pure speculation, yet I suppose the sleeve that once covered the back of Gonjo was the same colour as Pendokok. Never have seen an old silver one.

Agree in all points with Gustav, I really don't think that buntut and pendokok are recent additions and frankly wouldn't be very surprised when it will be gold of unknown quality, I would let test it and again frankly said I would think about to let restore the pendokok when it is indeed gold. It is maybe very thin (because expensive) gold and I think that this keris was once a dress piece. I am as well every time dubiously when I see elephant molar hilts but have to agree with Gustav by the same reasons.
And yes, please care the blade!

Regards,
Detlef

[Jean]

I agree with the opinions from the other members, but would just like to add that from the pics the pendokok and buntut look to be made from gilt silver, and the hilt has a vague cockatoo shape indeed (attributed to Jambi).
Regards

[Sajen]

Agree with Kai and Jean, this form of hilt is attributed to Jambi.

[ariel]

Here are the pics you have requested. I looked carefully at the selut and buntut: you might have been correct, it may indeed be gilt silver. Need to take them to a jeweler. There are two holes in the gonjo, one at each end and there might have been another, currently plugged in, in the middle. The big hole in the gonjo is lined up with some non-ferrous metal.

Any additional insights?

[Sajen]

Hello Ariel,

thank you for the additional pictures. I think the gonjo was once covered with a sheet from the same material as the pendokok and buntut and reveted at the holes and also at the middle hole for the tang (pesi) and bead over at the crenation visible at the sides of the cross piece (gonjo).
Since you have now dismantled all parts I would advise that you bath the blade and gonjo in lemon acid or pineapple juice (without sugar) until all rust is gone. You can find here many threads how to handle this.
And yes, let test the pendokok material, it will be either gild silver or gold. I would let restore this pendokok, you will have after this a very nice keris, it's worth the effort. Maybe a gold smith can give the gonjo also a new cover!? A very nice and good keris!

Regards,
Detlef

[ariel]

Thanks Detlef!

Will 3% vinegar do?

[A. G. Maisey]

A word on cleaning.

Before soaking the blade it is a very good practice to remove any non-ferrous metals from the blade, the reason being that copper and brass can leave a deposit on the blade, similar to electro-plating, and this can be a bit difficult to remove. With this blade, get rid of the brass or whatever in the gonjo hole, and the pin that is stuck in the fixing hole.

In respect of the fluid used to clean.
For many years I used pineapple juice, but it was juice from fresh pineapples, not recomposed juice made from pineapple concentrate. The juice made from pineapple concentrate will clean a blade, but it is not good. I have stopped using it. I never have liked lemon juice, it seems to be too harsh, and the juice from my lemons makes a blade very dark and too difficult to stain when the cleaning is complete. Lime juice seems to be OK, but limes are very, very expensive.

Citric acid is OK, but the last 20 or 30 blades that I've cleaned I have done with ordinary household white vinegar. This works well and does not damage the blade.

This blade that we are considering at the moment will need daily mechanical cleaning during the cleaning, a small, sharp pointed implement is best used for this. I use a scraper made from a small triangular file that has a radius ground onto it.

It is essential to carry out a proper process.

Each day the blade must be removed from the vinegar and brushed with a stiff brush, rinsed under running water, dried, mechanically cleaned, rinsed, dried, returned to the vinegar.

When the blade has had all the corrosion removed it is rinsed thoroughly, then it is painted with a slurry of bicarbonate of soda which is worked into it well.

Allow the blade to stand for a while, say 15 minutes, rinse thoroughly, wash with dishwash detergent under running water, rinse thoroughly, dry with a clean lint free cloth, dry again with a hair dryer, spray with WD40 and allow to stand overnight. Then paint it with oil (lots of discussion on oils) and wrap in plastic film.

If you want the blade in the white when finished cleaning, steel wool (OO) and powder sink cleaner is effective. Wash thoroughly under running water and with dishwash liquid when the blade is clean of the dark stain. You do this before the drying and oiling.

[ariel]

Thanks Alan!
I knew this would be a long process.... Nothing is simple with you, kris lovers:-)

And special thanks for your vinegar comments: I have no pineapple or lime tree in my backyard in Michigan, and always wondered why you, guys, were always using exotic juices when a a nice clean organic acid was freely available in a local supermarket for pennies per gallon.
BTW: Do you have any comments about this kris?

[A. G. Maisey]

No Ariel, no comments on the keris. I do not share the enthusiasm of others for keris from areas other than the areas of origin of the keris, as a consequence my knowledge of keris from these other areas is less than good. I do have opinions, but I learnt long ago that my opinions in respect of these keris only upset people, so I keep them to myself.

Re the use of pineapple juice & etc.

I started to clean and restore keris over 60 years ago, and at that time I was using methods described in 19th century books written by Europeans. These books talked about coconut water as the correct fluid to use.

Well, I couldn't get coconut water, so I thought about what other sort of natural juices I could use. I tried tomato juice, and apple juice and orange juice. I tried just about everything I could buy in can and everything I could squeeze out of a fruit.

I finally settled on pineapple juice as a cheap, easily obtainable juice that did an excellent job and did not harm the blade, no matter how long you left it in the juice.

As noted above , I stopped using pineapple juice when juice from fresh pineapples became unobtainable. This was caused by the sale of the Golden Circle company to the Heinz Group which did not waste any time in rationalising products and organisation to maximise returns. The Little Men in Grey Suits chalked up another victory. Incidentally, the new version of the juice is not only lousy to clean blades, it also tastes lousy.

But anyway, I used pineapple juice for a very long time, and I passed the recommendation for its use on to a lot of people. I guess other people also discovered its properties, independent of any advice from me.

However, about limes.

There is absolutely no substitute for freshly squeezed juice from Tahitian Limes mixed with warangan when it comes to staining a blade.

[ariel]

Tahitian lime juice, Beefeater gin, a touch of arsenic, shaken not stirred....

Sounds adventurous, doesn't it?

[Rafngard]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

However, about limes.

There is absolutely no substitute for freshly squeezed juice from Tahitian Limes mixed with warangan when it comes to staining a blade.

The internet is telling me that Tahitian lime is the same thing as Persian lime (perhaps the most commonly sold lime in the us). I am skeptical of this.
Am I right to be so?

Thanks,
Leif

[A. G. Maisey]

In Australia we call the limes that I use "Tahitian limes". At the moment I do not have a tree, but I did have a tree 20 years ago, the tree was sold to me as a Tahitian Lime, in the supermarkets fruit that was the same as on my tree was called "Tahitian Lime".

In Jawa limes that appear to be exactly the same as this are called jeruk nipis.

In appearance the fruit is round, about the same size as a large egg, very green. Taste is more acidic than a lemon.

I do not know what Persian limes are.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ariel, re Beefeater gin.

Bet you didn't know that many "pure fruit juice" products on the market are processed with an extract made from beef and with alcohol, did you?

Basically a lot of this stuff is not halal.

Before consumption check with the manufacturer if this is a concern to you.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks Detlef!

Will 3% vinegar do?

Like Alan I am using household vinegar for cleaning my blades but I try to find the most concentrated stuff (10% acetic acid, 8% minimum) for speeding-up the process, and I am covering the container in order to avoid evaporation and dilution of the vinegar. After initial mechanical cleaning of the rust, it usually does not take more than 36 hours for fully cleaning a blade, with regular scrubbings with an iron pad or metal brush impregnated with a cleaning paste. See the result on an old Panjang blade but keep in mind that the corrosion pits will remain and in some cases the outcome may be disappointing.
Regards

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks Detlef!

Will 3% vinegar do?

Hello Ariel,

think that Alan has described it very well. I use byself citric acid which you can buy in the supermarket. Very good note from Alan to remove the other metal material.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Rafngard

The internet is telling me that Tahitian lime is the same thing as Persian lime (perhaps the most commonly sold lime in the us). I am skeptical of this.
Am I right to be so?

Hello Leif,

don't think that you need to be skeptical, a few days ago I've seen at tv a documentation, it will be Persian lime.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, I've tried stronger vinegar, here they label it as cleaning vinegar.

What I have found is that when the material of the blade is good, dense material, well compacted and with a relatively smooth surface, the stronger vinegar does give a faster result, however, when the material is of lesser quality and not smooth and compacted the stronger vinegar tends to leave the blade looking like a sponge.

The time taken to clean is immaterial to me. In the past , with pineapple juice I would sometimes take 2 weeks or moreto thoroughly clean a blade, and perhaps renew the juice several times during the process, especially in summer. I like the process to proceed slowly because it is easier to control.

The brushes I use are old tooth brushes, hard is better, but I usually use soft brushes, because that's what gets used in the house. I do not use metal brushes, and frankly I consider them unnecessary, because the vinegar --- or whatever is being used --- softens the corrosion to the point where all that is required is relatively gentle brushing to remove the loose residue of the rust.

Yes, I acknowledge that my process is slow, but it is very, very safe.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, I've tried stronger vinegar, here they label it as cleaning vinegar.

What I have found is that when the material of the blade is good, dense material, well compacted and with a relatively smooth surface, the stronger vinegar does give a faster result, however, when the material is of lesser quality and not smooth and compacted the stronger vinegar tends to leave the blade looking like a sponge.

This is an example of "spongy" blade after acid cleaning as described by Alan. I used a regular household vinegar/ 10% citric acid mix for cleaning this blade but it was severely corroded, and this is the result! I should better have removed most of the rust mechanically and just polished & oiled it.
Regards

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

This is an example of "spongy" blade after acid cleaning as described by Alan. I used a regular household vinegar/ 10% citric acid mix for cleaning this blade but it was severely corroded, and this is the result! I should better have removed most of the rust mechanically and just polished & oiled it.
Regards

Hello Jean,

I think you have done it in the correct way, the blade was just to much corroded. But you have removed all rust what's important. The other blade you have shown look fine.

Regards,
Detlef

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by Sajen

I would let restore this pendokok, you will have after this a very nice keris, it's worth the effort. Maybe a gold smith can give the gonjo also a new cover!? A very nice and good keris!

Regards,
Detlef

I agree 100% with Detlef on the pendokok. It looks fine in combination with the buntut and can easily be restored in the correct shape.

Nice keris btw. Hugging and kissing seems overdone, But calling it George... why not


Best regards,
Willem

[A. G. Maisey]

Nothing wrong with that cleaning result Jean, it is as Detlef has said, it was deeply corroded in the first place.

Actually, the material in that blade does not appear to be what I had in mind when I used the word "spongey".

Some Javanese blades have pamor sanak that has been made from what appears to be very low quality wrought iron that has not been cleaned properly during the forging process, when you try to clean it with anything, even my old-time favourite, pineapple juice, it develops holes and open grain that was simply not visible before the cleaning process.

Your blade shown here has a heap of pits, caused by corrosion, it does not display the effect I have tried to describe.

Incidentally, I think you will find that the heavier concentration of pitting in the front part of the blade has occurred where it has been heat treated, behind the point at which the heat treat stopped the pitting is less concentrated.

Note, the "cleaning during the forging process" that I mention above has nothing to do with vinegar, it is the repeated folding and welding of material in order to remove impurities. The general rule is that you fold and weld until "stars" do not fly from the material at weld heat when struck by the hammer.

[Jean]

Hello Detlef and Alan,
Thank you, I agree that I could not do better for a complete blade cleaning and that the blade materials was sound but deeply corroded.
Regards