Spanish Morocco Berber sword

mahratt · 30th October 2018, 05:19 AM

Hi guys. Who knows what name the local tribes gave these swords?

Helleri · 30th October 2018, 05:39 AM

...When the hilt is just right.

TVV · 30th October 2018, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Hi guys. Who knows what name the local tribes gave these swords?

I believe people in what is nowadays the Dominican Republic, where these are from, simply called them machete. Tirri is great for providing examples of weapons, but completely unreliable for identification purposes.

mahratt · 30th October 2018, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

I believe people in what is nowadays the Dominican Republic, where these are from, simply called them machete. Tirri is great for providing examples of weapons, but completely unreliable for identification purposes.

Thank you very much! Are there photos of people from the Dominican Republic with such swords in their hands?

Kubur · 30th October 2018, 08:53 AM

Well I disagree
Tirri was sometimes wrong.
His book is huge, please count the good ID and the wrong ID and give me a ratio.
I think he was right 80% of the time.
These swords were produced in the Dominican and in South Morocco, both under Spanish influence. I think yours is from South Morocco.

mahratt · 30th October 2018, 09:44 AM

I think a photo of a berber from Morocco or a man from Dominican Republic with such a sword would be the deciding factor.

midelburgo · 30th October 2018, 11:31 AM

It is unusual to find examples of that machete in Spanish museums, I have not seen them in the Museum of America or the Ethnological Museum. But you can find a plethora of Moroccan weapons in the last one. Dominica became independent before the development of that kind of machete (they asked again to be part of Spain in the late 1850s for a short period).

I believe those blades have nothing to do with North Africa. And there is no utility as a tool there, either.

mahratt · 30th October 2018, 02:31 PM

Dear forum members, I understand that everyone has their own opinions

I hope that someone has an old photo of people with this weapon.

Kubur · 30th October 2018, 05:33 PM

I used machetes, it's not a machete: it's too long, it's a sword.
Try to cut the bush with a sword, you'll see...

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2018, 07:05 PM

I obtained one of these swords in 1998 which carried then the unfortunate moniker 'Berber sabre'. In those days these were virtually unknown in the collecting community, although they are seen in "Les Armes Blanches du Monde Islamique" by Alain Jacob (1985). These were included in the 'Hispano-Moresque' chapter. This reference has always been notably absent in the 'community' references, though obtainable if properly sought.

I was told it was a 'Berber' sword from the 'Rif' which of course led to a course of research that was to carry for many years. After a time more of these began to appear in catalogues and auctions, I think more to heightened awareness than sudden discovery in some long lost cache.

As has been noted, research revealed these were actually more a 'machete' from Central America and other regions of the 'Spanish Main' which included Cuba, the Dominican Republic and other Spanish colonial regions with tropical context. While these are with a wide variation of blades (included some with the familiar 'Spanish Motto') and at least one had the motto 'para los Valientes Dominicanos'...…..many seem to have had old British blades.

The one I have I matched its blade to a M1796 British light cavalry sabre blade, and it was a nearly perfect match. The tips of the blades on these seem to have had the hatchet points reprofiled with a curious point like seen on many kampilans.

While I had already found the Central American connection thanks to Pierce Chamberlain (author of "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821" , 1972) who was helping with my query and discovered some of these in Spanish-American War context and from Cuban regions as souveniers. ….the work by Juan L. Calvo , "Machetes del Ejercito de Ultramar en uba y Puerto Rico" (2006) confirmed the attribution.

I think one of the foremost authorities on the arms of Morocco was researcher Charles Buttin, who actually lived in Morocco many years in the late 19th c. and his studies and collection were published in 1933. I had the pleasure of knowing personally his great grandson Dominique, and we had many great discussions in his visits. As was brought up, if such a weapon as these sabres were INDIGINOUS to Morocco, they would have appeared in his well known works on their weapons. There are NONE in his works.

Here I would point out that 'Berber' tribal structure is far more complex that can be addressed effectively in these kinds of studies, and weapon forms transcend any sort of such classifications or boundaries.

The Tirri book of 2004 is as I have always said, a great book for collectors as te weapons illustrated are mostly well identified, and of the grade typically seen in the venues where they can be obtained. The issue with the book from a scholarly point of view is that sources and citations are absent as a rule, and as a research reference the volume is not particularly effective, NOT that identifications are wrong (other than several instances).

With reference to Tirri's inclusion of these 'Berber' sabres as Moroccan was not entirely wrong. Apparently these did end up there in some of the insurgences of the early 20th century, up to and including the "Rif Wars' of 1920s. While obviously there was no need for machetes in the Sahara!! they did serve as ersatz secondary arms just as many sword forms.

With regard to photos and art as evidence in these kinds of studies on arms.
As a researcher I rely on as much narrative and period account as possible, and look for corroboration in these. All evidence must be evaluated and corroborated and the merits of all must be weighed accordingly.
Actual examples included in study rely heavily on provenance, and in many if not most cases, there are 'stories' attached which are more 'lore' than fact.

Naturally 'photos' of the period may be considered along with other evidence, but these are hardly conclusive, nor necessarily admissable.
Even in the earliest days of photography there was 'doctoring' and altering of the content.

Most early photos were 'staged' and examples I have looked into from the Crimean war for example, the "Valley of Death" purporting to be the site of the ill fated cavalry charge was actually a road littered with cannon balls nowhere near the actual valley.

In the 1860s and later CDV (carte d' visite) cards were posed photos using studio props and subjects in costume and holding weapons to add to the impact of the theme. This is why most Civil War soldiers in portraits seem to always be holding the same 'Bowie knife' and 'Navy' Colt pistol.

Rembrandt as a classic artist used the same concepts in many of his works, and actually had collections of costumes and arms and armor to use as studies as he painted them into his themed work and portraiture.

Returning to the subject matter here.......the SO CALLED Berber sabres....I would highly recommend the search feature under that heading which will reveal the many discussions and illustrations which have brought the true nature and provenance of these swords.

The prevalence of British blades in these as well as the shell guard sabres seen in the photo of the grouping in Barcelona are due to the profound presence of Great Britain in the commerce in the Spanish Main, which often included slaving and in the Civil War period, weapons running in the Caribbean. These surplus blades were clearly well among such commodities.

In the illustrations the top shellguard sabre is of a type with provenance to Brazil, but we know of others into Central American and Mexican Gulf Coast regions. I have one of these with a British blade as per discussion , just as found on my 'Berber' sabre.

The next two are 'Berbers' ….I would note that I have seen numbers of these in collections and groupings from Mexico. Also from these regions and Cuba are the 'guanabacoa' swords with finger stalls in cast brass hilts.

At the bottom is a classic shell guard espada ancha of Mexican frontiers. These are typically found in the north of Mexico and in the American Southwest, which was Mexico until 1846.

TVV · 30th October 2018, 08:53 PM

Here is a link to a relatively long thread on these:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...6&page=1&pp=30

I understand that long threads can be somewhat tedious to read, so here is a summary of the relevant facts:
1. In post #56 you will see a machete in the Museo del Ejercito in Toledo, identified there as from the Dominican Republic.
2. Throughout the thread you will see that sometimes these machetes have inscriptions in Spanish, a few of which reference the Dominican Republic and one even a particular district within the Dominican Republic.

It is fun to speculate what may have happened within the Spanish colonial empire and Spanish sphere of cultural influence, but so far there has been no factual evidence of these machetes produced in the Maghreb, or even ever used there.

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2018, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Here is a link to a relatively long thread on these:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...6&page=1&pp=30

I understand that long threads can be somewhat tedious to read, so here is a summary of the relevant facts:
1. In post #56 you will see a machete in the Museo del Ejercito in Toledo, identified there as from the Dominican Republic.
2. Throughout the thread you will see that sometimes these machetes have inscriptions in Spanish, a few of which reference the Dominican Republic and one even a particular district within the Dominican Republic.

It is fun to speculate what may have happened within the Spanish colonial empire and Spanish sphere of cultural influence, but so far there has been no factual evidence of these machetes produced in the Maghreb, or even ever used there.

Indeed they can be tedious, especially when trying to capsulate material covered in well over a decade of discussions which is archived here. But what is impressive is the interactive material we have discussed in order to find facts in the queries toward these forms.
Most collectors look for the conclusions or concise and simple classifications, while some interested in serious study look for detailed compilations of data which often includes historical material etc. Such studies may include things not seen as relevant but in larger dimension give perspective.

Thank you for the synopsis which I should have added for the former.

Kubur · 31st October 2018, 12:59 AM

Here you have machetes, not the same blades, not the same length...
Plus I'm not denying these swords in Dominican republic, I'm saying that they were used with local Moroccan hilts and scabbards in Africa too...

ariel · 31st October 2018, 02:54 AM

These are modern European industrial machetes. I am not sure they can be regarded as proper comparisons.

ariel · 31st October 2018, 03:48 AM

It would be nice to have photographs of inhabitants of a defined country carrying old weapons of a particular design. Regretfully, such opportunities come very infrequently.

We are dealing with historical weapons and a good proportion of them went out of use before photography became available. Moreover, some localities were not easily reachable.

Take Afghani ch’huras, for example. Some people scoured the internet in search of photographs of mid-19 century Afghanis carrying ch’huras and found none.
Well, British military expeditions through the Khyber pass were highly risky enterprises and likely tended not to include photographers with their bulky equipment.

And what conclusions can we reach from the absence of such photographs and their sudden later appearance? That ch’huras came to existence only in the 20 century, as a result of pacification of Afghanistan and minituarization of photographic equipment?

The golden rule of science is that absence of evidence does not signify evidence of absence.

Thus, absence of photographs of the above “Berber” swords would not support or reject their Moroccan or Central American origin.

We are limited to contemporaneous drawings, locations of their finding and written accounts.

Will M · 31st October 2018, 05:03 AM

The blade has a Solingen makers mark of Bleckmann (bow with BM).
The blade profile resembles the British 1796 light cavalry. Later British India used very similar blades though heavier on swords circ. 1860 and later.

TVV · 31st October 2018, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Plus I'm not denying these swords in Dominican republic, I'm saying that they were used with local Moroccan hilts and scabbards in Africa too...

Thank you for explaining, I think I understand your point now and agree with it. There is such a variety of blades on Moroccan saif (or nimcha, as we collectors like to call them for simplicity) that it appears that any decent blade would have been used and mounted according to local preference. The hilt is almost always the key to the attribution of ethnographic weapons, and as far as the hilts on these machetes are concerned, my conclusion based on the available information is that these hilts are Dominican, not Maghrebi.

Is it possible that some of these were shipped to Morocco and rehilted there? Yes, and hopefully one day someone will show a short sword with a motto in Spanish and a Moroccan hilt to confirm this.

Kubur · 21st January 2019, 04:22 PM

Another nice example of South Morocco Berber sword
The hilt follow Spanish mesoamerican traditions with a Spanish blade for export...

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2019, 06:32 PM

Another great example of these most interesting swords which we have discussed here so many times, and which appear to predominate in Cuba, Puerto Rico and the 'Spanish Main' to the Mexican coasts.
This example seems to have made it into the Spanish colonies in Morocco, just as the long disputed 'Berber sabres' of the OP.

These curious swords with the distinct 'finger stalls' and nocked pommel seem to have numerous variations, but the narrow blade and that 'squiggle' motif seem to occur almost characteristically on most. The one I obtained back in the 90s had a knuckleguard and shell guard much in the 'espada ancha' manner and was attributed to Monterrey, Mexico.

As I described in my post #10 (30 Oct 2018) I was researching these with Pierce Chamberlain ("Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821", 1972) back then, and others with focus on the Spanish Colonial aspects.
A number of years later, he contacted me and had found evidence of these being 'bring backs' from Spanish American war from Cuba.

After that Juan Calvo (2006) wrote his paper (op. cit. post #10) which described these as 'guanabacoa' apparently from the Cuban city near Havana . Clearly these diffused considerably through the Spanish Main and from Morocco to as far as the Philippines. I cannot see them as a functional weapon in most cases, but more as a ceremonial accoutrement.

While these, like the 'Berber sabres', were not indiginous to Morocco, they certainly occurred there, it seems mostly in the early years of the 20th century. As noted, Charles Buttin, in his thorough studies if ethnographic weapons, and after many years of residence in Morocco, never included either of these forms in his work.

Conversely, the also much discussed 'Zanzibar swords' (Demmin, 1877; Burton, 1884) he did note in his work (1933) and correct as actually s'boula daggers from Morocco.

Thank you for posting this Kubur!! Nice example!!

fernando · 21st January 2019, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I used machetes, it's not a machete: it's too long, it's a sword.
Try to cut the bush with a sword, you'll see...

Well, Juan L. Calvo is a credited expert and calls them Machetes ... Cubanos ... made in Spain for the Cuban forces.

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/34-Ultramar.pdf

.

TVV · 21st January 2019, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Another nice example of South Morocco Berber sword
The hilt follow Spanish mesoamerican traditions with a Spanish blade for export...

I am just curious, what is the basis for the Moroccan attribution of this Spanish machete made for Spanish colonial forces? We know these were made in Spain and worn by Spanish officers in the Caribbean and the Philippines, see this post here:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.p...1&postcount=11

Was the example you posted specifically collected in Western Sahara with the appropriate provenance? If so, it would simply mean that a Spanish officer took one there, which is interesting but does not change much. To attribute it to Morocco as a native Berber weapon would be akin to stating that the Gras bayonet was a Berber weapon as well, because a few ended up in Berber hands from the French troops who were armed with the rifle.

Kubur · 21st January 2019, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

To attribute it to Morocco as a native Berber weapon would be akin to stating that the Gras bayonet was a Berber weapon as well, because a few ended up in Berber hands from the French troops who were armed with the rifle.

It's a very good example, yes many Moroccan sbula have Gras bayonet but they are Moroccan native weapons....with non native blades... Many koummiya have Spanish Toledo blades...
Most of the swords discussed on this forum are made with imported blades, Caucasus in India, English, French or Spanish in Morocco... Germans in Ethiopia... And i don't think that is a problem. It's very important to not see objects as black or white or to be stuborn...Natives did copies, natives reused Europeans blades all the times.
As you said it was very well demonstrated that these swords are Spanish colonial swords, but why to deny that these swords were used and copied in Morocco?

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2019, 09:04 PM

Thank you Teodor for the link to that 2007 post by Marc (sure do miss his posts) who was in Barcelona. He had some great insights into Spanish and the colonial examples weapons.
My Spanish reading ability is pretty limited, but I got the impression in reading the Calvo text that these types of arms were 'de guanabacoa', not that it is relevant, I'm sure machetes Cubanos works as well.

Like the name or term thing, attribution or classification is always difficult as was well illustrated by the many years of debate over the 'Berber' sabre. Like this example of the OP, the variations of these were found as far as the Philippines, leading to the notion they were from there equally as the other suggestions.
On these guanabacoa(?) machete examples, I have even seen some of these posted in catalogs as Algerian!!!!????

As far as the example I have, the blade with similar markings and a knuckle guard added (stated from Monterrey. Mexico) is mostly akin to a barbeque tool, is rigid and like bar stock steel......it would not function as any sort of weapon except as a blunt force rod, let alone a machete. I do not know the character of the many other examples' blades, perhaps they are sharp.

The photos are I think from the Calvo article, but show the guard and 'shell' as on my example; the repeated pattern motif is similar to that on mine but I think the squiggle type.

Note the striations on the shell, resembling those of the espadas we have considered from South America with those same lines.
Also, it has always been curious that the notched indentation at the top of the hilt of these is effectively on the back rather than as a hand nock as found on nimchas as well as the South American espada,

TVV · 21st January 2019, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

As you said it was very well demonstrated that these swords are Spanish colonial swords, but why to deny that these swords were used and copied in Morocco?

Because none of the parts of these machetes were made in Africa: hilts and blades were produced in Spain for use by Spanish colonial troops. An unmodified Gras bayonet is just that, a Gras bayonet.

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2019, 12:15 AM

I think the combining of 'foreign' blades in local style hilts in colonial regions is of course a common scenario, but personally I regard these 'incarnations' of weapons as i.e. ...a Moroccan s'boula with Gras bayonet blade etc. There were many versions of s'boula with other types of blades typically bayonets.

I suppose that there are those who might regard the example as a Gras bayonet with a s'boula hilt. I am not sure which would be more correct, but depending on the context of its provenance, in Morocco, it is to me a s'boula.
In a collection of French arms or in European context it could be a Gras bayonet with a s'boula hilt from Morocco.

With the input from Marc, who was most well informed on arms in Spain (and its colonies), there was production of these in the Toledo armory in the mid 19th c.....it seems their limited production might have included these kinds of arms.

From my perspective, it does not seem that arms which arrived in a location such as colonial Spanish Morocco would have been of forms which would have invited production of copies. From what I understand of the Rif War which ensued through the 1920s from continuous insurgence in years before by the Rif tribes, the Spanish forces were a hodgepodge of conscripts and troops from many places, including Cuba etc.
Descriptions of these campaigns note low morale and struggles among these troops and that they often bartered away materials including some arms, which seems a pretty constant source for these military arms throughout the Sahara.

In considering my comments about exclusion of these sword types by Buttin in his works, perhaps they were later there than his residence and study as these campaigns in which these might have arrived were in the 1920s.

fernando · 22nd January 2019, 03:25 PM

According to Calvó, two wo types of Machetes "Cubanos" could be established; one with a straight blade, regular thickness and length, with half cane fullers in its second third, and another with an inferior thickness and wider width, without fullers. According to Dr. Hector J. Meruelo (Miami) the first one was defined as "Guanabacoa", a village close to the Capital, today its suburb.
The second type was popularized later, during the 10 years war (1868-78), abounding the examples in which blades show German or North American marks, inscribed in the Spanish idiom, as destined to the Hispano market.
A type from Guanabacoa dated 1856 shows it was made in the Toledo factory.The production over there of machetes with wide (ancha) blade, for troops equipment, was initiated in 1991, with two models destined respectively to Infantry Officers and troopers.The first to be acquired by its users and the second as munitions grade, approved by Royal Order 9th January 1892 as "model 1891 for the Infantry of the Cuban Army"

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2019, 05:32 PM

Fernando thank you for the interpreted material from Calvo, that explains a lot of what I had presumed toward the Guanabacoa term as well as the machete Cubanos term. It does seem there was some Spanish production as you note the Toledo reference which Marc also specified some years ago.

It seems a lot of these swords were essentially forerunners of what became broadly termed machetes, and it seems that was primarily their function, the clearing of heavy undergrowth and vegetation in these tropical climes.

The 'Berber' sabres described in the OP, with the curious and distinctive hilts were typically with repurposed cavalry blades, which I have always thought in the way many were reprofiled at the tips. These to me seemed the resemble the blade point of kampilans or other such Philippines and archipelago weapons . That feature seemed to offer support for such influence from those regions and carried across the Spanish Main. That 'clipped' feature seems apparent on some of the 'Cubano' machete versions.

On the 'Berber' sabres, they had scabbards with a perpendicular protrusion at the end, which I was told was to hold the scabbard as the blade was withdrawn. Presumably it was often difficult with high humidity and heat as is the case with leather 'sweating'.
This noted pragmatism as well as weapons intended as machetes would seem to negate such designs for Moroccan regions as clearly this is not a tropical clime with such profuse vegetation. Some desert areas such as the Sonora of N. Mexico have dense undergrowth and chaparral, which was the main purpose of the espada ancha, but I do not think Morocco has that.

In the attached photos, the top is one of the 'Berber' sabres which has the M1796 blade reprofiled at the tip in the manner I described, and the scabbard has the protrusion remaining only partially in its base.
The museum case was in Barcelona and shows these along with an espada ancha.

fernando · 22nd January 2019, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It seems a lot of these swords were essentially forerunners of what became broadly termed machetes, and it seems that was primarily their function, the clearing of heavy undergrowth and vegetation in these tropical climes ...

Precisely; the first paragraph in Calvó's article MACHETES DEL EJÉRCITO DE ULTRAMAR EN CUBA Y PUERTO RICO reads:
In the Antilles, the vegetation made of the jungle machetes an useful everyday working tool and its introduction as an equipment for its garrison forces is evidenced before 1868, in which started in Cuba the inssurectional movement.

On a different note, i don't catch whether the intention is to name the swords cased in the Barcelona Montjuic castle as Berber. I know that Don Calvó was himself the documentalist (and director ...) of this museum, which was still open when i have been there (2008?); although not with particular interest to read carefully all captions ... and the pictures i took were a disaster of quality. I regret that my picture of this case also shows unfocused captions, those clearly written in both Castillian and Catalan. Maybe someone with a better equipment can discern further .

.

fernando · 22nd January 2019, 07:05 PM

Morocco ??? ... with an English blade ???

.

Kubur · 22nd January 2019, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Morocco ??? ... with an English blade ???

.

Thanks god!
Or better god bless you!
Morocco was full of English blades for daggers, for swords and also English locks... I have a nimcha with a samuel harvey stamp just as an example.
Ibrahem posted many pictures of Moroccan ambassadors in London.
Now i'm sure that some forum members will say that the museum is wrong...
They are often wrong but not always...

30th October 2018, 11:31 AM	#7
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 257	It is unusual to find examples of that machete in Spanish museums, I have not seen them in the Museum of America or the Ethnological Museum. But you can find a plethora of Moroccan weapons in the last one. Dominica became independent before the development of that kind of machete (they asked again to be part of Spain in the late 1850s for a short period). I believe those blades have nothing to do with North Africa. And there is no utility as a tool there, either. Last edited by midelburgo; 30th October 2018 at 12:05 PM.

31st October 2018, 12:59 AM	#13
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Here you have machetes, not the same blades, not the same length... Plus I'm not denying these swords in Dominican republic, I'm saying that they were used with local Moroccan hilts and scabbards in Africa too... Attached Images

21st January 2019, 04:22 PM	#18
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Another nice example of South Morocco Berber sword The hilt follow Spanish mesoamerican traditions with a Spanish blade for export... Attached Images

21st January 2019, 09:04 PM	#23
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Thank you Teodor for the link to that 2007 post by Marc (sure do miss his posts) who was in Barcelona. He had some great insights into Spanish and the colonial examples weapons. My Spanish reading ability is pretty limited, but I got the impression in reading the Calvo text that these types of arms were 'de guanabacoa', not that it is relevant, I'm sure machetes Cubanos works as well. Like the name or term thing, attribution or classification is always difficult as was well illustrated by the many years of debate over the 'Berber' sabre. Like this example of the OP, the variations of these were found as far as the Philippines, leading to the notion they were from there equally as the other suggestions. On these guanabacoa(?) machete examples, I have even seen some of these posted in catalogs as Algerian!!!!???? As far as the example I have, the blade with similar markings and a knuckle guard added (stated from Monterrey. Mexico) is mostly akin to a barbeque tool, is rigid and like bar stock steel......it would not function as any sort of weapon except as a blunt force rod, let alone a machete. I do not know the character of the many other examples' blades, perhaps they are sharp. The photos are I think from the Calvo article, but show the guard and 'shell' as on my example; the repeated pattern motif is similar to that on mine but I think the squiggle type. Note the striations on the shell, resembling those of the espadas we have considered from South America with those same lines. Also, it has always been curious that the notched indentation at the top of the hilt of these is effectively on the back rather than as a hand nock as found on nimchas as well as the South American espada, Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 21st January 2019 at 09:22 PM.

22nd January 2019, 05:32 PM	#27
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Fernando thank you for the interpreted material from Calvo, that explains a lot of what I had presumed toward the Guanabacoa term as well as the machete Cubanos term. It does seem there was some Spanish production as you note the Toledo reference which Marc also specified some years ago. It seems a lot of these swords were essentially forerunners of what became broadly termed machetes, and it seems that was primarily their function, the clearing of heavy undergrowth and vegetation in these tropical climes. The 'Berber' sabres described in the OP, with the curious and distinctive hilts were typically with repurposed cavalry blades, which I have always thought in the way many were reprofiled at the tips. These to me seemed the resemble the blade point of kampilans or other such Philippines and archipelago weapons . That feature seemed to offer support for such influence from those regions and carried across the Spanish Main. That 'clipped' feature seems apparent on some of the 'Cubano' machete versions. On the 'Berber' sabres, they had scabbards with a perpendicular protrusion at the end, which I was told was to hold the scabbard as the blade was withdrawn. Presumably it was often difficult with high humidity and heat as is the case with leather 'sweating'. This noted pragmatism as well as weapons intended as machetes would seem to negate such designs for Moroccan regions as clearly this is not a tropical clime with such profuse vegetation. Some desert areas such as the Sonora of N. Mexico have dense undergrowth and chaparral, which was the main purpose of the espada ancha, but I do not think Morocco has that. In the attached photos, the top is one of the 'Berber' sabres which has the M1796 blade reprofiled at the tip in the manner I described, and the scabbard has the protrusion remaining only partially in its base. The museum case was in Barcelona and shows these along with an espada ancha. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 22nd January 2019 at 05:45 PM.

30th October 2018, 05:19 AM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Spanish Morocco Berber sword Hi guys. Who knows what name the local tribes gave these swords? Attached Images

30th October 2018, 05:39 AM	#2
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	...When the hilt is just right.

30th October 2018, 08:53 AM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Well I disagree Tirri was sometimes wrong. His book is huge, please count the good ID and the wrong ID and give me a ratio. I think he was right 80% of the time. These swords were produced in the Dominican and in South Morocco, both under Spanish influence. I think yours is from South Morocco.

30th October 2018, 09:44 AM	#6
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I think a photo of a berber from Morocco or a man from Dominican Republic with such a sword would be the deciding factor.

30th October 2018, 02:31 PM	#8
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Dear forum members, I understand that everyone has their own opinions I hope that someone has an old photo of people with this weapon.

30th October 2018, 05:33 PM	#9
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I used machetes, it's not a machete: it's too long, it's a sword. Try to cut the bush with a sword, you'll see...

30th October 2018, 07:05 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	I obtained one of these swords in 1998 which carried then the unfortunate moniker 'Berber sabre'. In those days these were virtually unknown in the collecting community, although they are seen in "Les Armes Blanches du Monde Islamique" by Alain Jacob (1985). These were included in the 'Hispano-Moresque' chapter. This reference has always been notably absent in the 'community' references, though obtainable if properly sought. I was told it was a 'Berber' sword from the 'Rif' which of course led to a course of research that was to carry for many years. After a time more of these began to appear in catalogues and auctions, I think more to heightened awareness than sudden discovery in some long lost cache. As has been noted, research revealed these were actually more a 'machete' from Central America and other regions of the 'Spanish Main' which included Cuba, the Dominican Republic and other Spanish colonial regions with tropical context. While these are with a wide variation of blades (included some with the familiar 'Spanish Motto') and at least one had the motto 'para los Valientes Dominicanos'...…..many seem to have had old British blades. The one I have I matched its blade to a M1796 British light cavalry sabre blade, and it was a nearly perfect match. The tips of the blades on these seem to have had the hatchet points reprofiled with a curious point like seen on many kampilans. While I had already found the Central American connection thanks to Pierce Chamberlain (author of "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821" , 1972) who was helping with my query and discovered some of these in Spanish-American War context and from Cuban regions as souveniers. ….the work by Juan L. Calvo , "Machetes del Ejercito de Ultramar en uba y Puerto Rico" (2006) confirmed the attribution. I think one of the foremost authorities on the arms of Morocco was researcher Charles Buttin, who actually lived in Morocco many years in the late 19th c. and his studies and collection were published in 1933. I had the pleasure of knowing personally his great grandson Dominique, and we had many great discussions in his visits. As was brought up, if such a weapon as these sabres were INDIGINOUS to Morocco, they would have appeared in his well known works on their weapons. There are NONE in his works. Here I would point out that 'Berber' tribal structure is far more complex that can be addressed effectively in these kinds of studies, and weapon forms transcend any sort of such classifications or boundaries. The Tirri book of 2004 is as I have always said, a great book for collectors as te weapons illustrated are mostly well identified, and of the grade typically seen in the venues where they can be obtained. The issue with the book from a scholarly point of view is that sources and citations are absent as a rule, and as a research reference the volume is not particularly effective, NOT that identifications are wrong (other than several instances). With reference to Tirri's inclusion of these 'Berber' sabres as Moroccan was not entirely wrong. Apparently these did end up there in some of the insurgences of the early 20th century, up to and including the "Rif Wars' of 1920s. While obviously there was no need for machetes in the Sahara!! they did serve as ersatz secondary arms just as many sword forms. With regard to photos and art as evidence in these kinds of studies on arms. As a researcher I rely on as much narrative and period account as possible, and look for corroboration in these. All evidence must be evaluated and corroborated and the merits of all must be weighed accordingly. Actual examples included in study rely heavily on provenance, and in many if not most cases, there are 'stories' attached which are more 'lore' than fact. Naturally 'photos' of the period may be considered along with other evidence, but these are hardly conclusive, nor necessarily admissable. Even in the earliest days of photography there was 'doctoring' and altering of the content. Most early photos were 'staged' and examples I have looked into from the Crimean war for example, the "Valley of Death" purporting to be the site of the ill fated cavalry charge was actually a road littered with cannon balls nowhere near the actual valley. In the 1860s and later CDV (carte d' visite) cards were posed photos using studio props and subjects in costume and holding weapons to add to the impact of the theme. This is why most Civil War soldiers in portraits seem to always be holding the same 'Bowie knife' and 'Navy' Colt pistol. Rembrandt as a classic artist used the same concepts in many of his works, and actually had collections of costumes and arms and armor to use as studies as he painted them into his themed work and portraiture. Returning to the subject matter here.......the SO CALLED Berber sabres....I would highly recommend the search feature under that heading which will reveal the many discussions and illustrations which have brought the true nature and provenance of these swords. The prevalence of British blades in these as well as the shell guard sabres seen in the photo of the grouping in Barcelona are due to the profound presence of Great Britain in the commerce in the Spanish Main, which often included slaving and in the Civil War period, weapons running in the Caribbean. These surplus blades were clearly well among such commodities. In the illustrations the top shellguard sabre is of a type with provenance to Brazil, but we know of others into Central American and Mexican Gulf Coast regions. I have one of these with a British blade as per discussion , just as found on my 'Berber' sabre. The next two are 'Berbers' ….I would note that I have seen numbers of these in collections and groupings from Mexico. Also from these regions and Cuba are the 'guanabacoa' swords with finger stalls in cast brass hilts. At the bottom is a classic shell guard espada ancha of Mexican frontiers. These are typically found in the north of Mexico and in the American Southwest, which was Mexico until 1846. Attached Images

30th October 2018, 08:53 PM	#11
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Here is a link to a relatively long thread on these: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...6&page=1&pp=30 I understand that long threads can be somewhat tedious to read, so here is a summary of the relevant facts: 1. In post #56 you will see a machete in the Museo del Ejercito in Toledo, identified there as from the Dominican Republic. 2. Throughout the thread you will see that sometimes these machetes have inscriptions in Spanish, a few of which reference the Dominican Republic and one even a particular district within the Dominican Republic. It is fun to speculate what may have happened within the Spanish colonial empire and Spanish sphere of cultural influence, but so far there has been no factual evidence of these machetes produced in the Maghreb, or even ever used there.

31st October 2018, 02:54 AM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	These are modern European industrial machetes. I am not sure they can be regarded as proper comparisons.

31st October 2018, 03:48 AM	#15
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It would be nice to have photographs of inhabitants of a defined country carrying old weapons of a particular design. Regretfully, such opportunities come very infrequently. We are dealing with historical weapons and a good proportion of them went out of use before photography became available. Moreover, some localities were not easily reachable. Take Afghani ch’huras, for example. Some people scoured the internet in search of photographs of mid-19 century Afghanis carrying ch’huras and found none. Well, British military expeditions through the Khyber pass were highly risky enterprises and likely tended not to include photographers with their bulky equipment. And what conclusions can we reach from the absence of such photographs and their sudden later appearance? That ch’huras came to existence only in the 20 century, as a result of pacification of Afghanistan and minituarization of photographic equipment? The golden rule of science is that absence of evidence does not signify evidence of absence. Thus, absence of photographs of the above “Berber” swords would not support or reject their Moroccan or Central American origin. We are limited to contemporaneous drawings, locations of their finding and written accounts.

31st October 2018, 05:03 AM	#16
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	The blade has a Solingen makers mark of Bleckmann (bow with BM). The blade profile resembles the British 1796 light cavalry. Later British India used very similar blades though heavier on swords circ. 1860 and later.

21st January 2019, 06:32 PM	#19
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Another great example of these most interesting swords which we have discussed here so many times, and which appear to predominate in Cuba, Puerto Rico and the 'Spanish Main' to the Mexican coasts. This example seems to have made it into the Spanish colonies in Morocco, just as the long disputed 'Berber sabres' of the OP. These curious swords with the distinct 'finger stalls' and nocked pommel seem to have numerous variations, but the narrow blade and that 'squiggle' motif seem to occur almost characteristically on most. The one I obtained back in the 90s had a knuckleguard and shell guard much in the 'espada ancha' manner and was attributed to Monterrey, Mexico. As I described in my post #10 (30 Oct 2018) I was researching these with Pierce Chamberlain ("Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821", 1972) back then, and others with focus on the Spanish Colonial aspects. A number of years later, he contacted me and had found evidence of these being 'bring backs' from Spanish American war from Cuba. After that Juan Calvo (2006) wrote his paper (op. cit. post #10) which described these as 'guanabacoa' apparently from the Cuban city near Havana . Clearly these diffused considerably through the Spanish Main and from Morocco to as far as the Philippines. I cannot see them as a functional weapon in most cases, but more as a ceremonial accoutrement. While these, like the 'Berber sabres', were not indiginous to Morocco, they certainly occurred there, it seems mostly in the early years of the 20th century. As noted, Charles Buttin, in his thorough studies if ethnographic weapons, and after many years of residence in Morocco, never included either of these forms in his work. Conversely, the also much discussed 'Zanzibar swords' (Demmin, 1877; Burton, 1884) he did note in his work (1933) and correct as actually s'boula daggers from Morocco. Thank you for posting this Kubur!! Nice example!!

22nd January 2019, 12:15 AM	#25
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	I think the combining of 'foreign' blades in local style hilts in colonial regions is of course a common scenario, but personally I regard these 'incarnations' of weapons as i.e. ...a Moroccan s'boula with Gras bayonet blade etc. There were many versions of s'boula with other types of blades typically bayonets. I suppose that there are those who might regard the example as a Gras bayonet with a s'boula hilt. I am not sure which would be more correct, but depending on the context of its provenance, in Morocco, it is to me a s'boula. In a collection of French arms or in European context it could be a Gras bayonet with a s'boula hilt from Morocco. With the input from Marc, who was most well informed on arms in Spain (and its colonies), there was production of these in the Toledo armory in the mid 19th c.....it seems their limited production might have included these kinds of arms. From my perspective, it does not seem that arms which arrived in a location such as colonial Spanish Morocco would have been of forms which would have invited production of copies. From what I understand of the Rif War which ensued through the 1920s from continuous insurgence in years before by the Rif tribes, the Spanish forces were a hodgepodge of conscripts and troops from many places, including Cuba etc. Descriptions of these campaigns note low morale and struggles among these troops and that they often bartered away materials including some arms, which seems a pretty constant source for these military arms throughout the Sahara. In considering my comments about exclusion of these sword types by Buttin in his works, perhaps they were later there than his residence and study as these campaigns in which these might have arrived were in the 1920s.

22nd January 2019, 03:25 PM	#26
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	According to Calvó, two wo types of Machetes "Cubanos" could be established; one with a straight blade, regular thickness and length, with half cane fullers in its second third, and another with an inferior thickness and wider width, without fullers. According to Dr. Hector J. Meruelo (Miami) the first one was defined as "Guanabacoa", a village close to the Capital, today its suburb. The second type was popularized later, during the 10 years war (1868-78), abounding the examples in which blades show German or North American marks, inscribed in the Spanish idiom, as destined to the Hispano market. A type from Guanabacoa dated 1856 shows it was made in the Toledo factory.The production over there of machetes with wide (ancha) blade, for troops equipment, was initiated in 1991, with two models destined respectively to Infantry Officers and troopers.The first to be acquired by its users and the second as munitions grade, approved by Royal Order 9th January 1892 as "model 1891 for the Infantry of the Cuban Army"

22nd January 2019, 07:05 PM	#29
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Morocco ??? ... with an English blade ??? . Attached Images