Man with a dha ?

RhysMichael · 8th October 2006, 09:22 PM

It looks like a dha to me. It is only attributed to the 19th century and "asian" by the Smithsonian. Let me know if you all also think this is Thai

Bancha Thongkomol · 9th October 2006, 07:57 AM

Burma

PUFF · 9th October 2006, 08:18 AM

From the dressing and the text, I would say Burma too.

RhysMichael · 9th October 2006, 12:41 PM

Thanks to you both

Andrew · 9th October 2006, 02:28 PM

Very interesting stuff. The text looks arabic to me. If it is, could one of our members translate it for us?

Any comments on the sword itself, guys? If presented by itself, I'd say it looked Siamese.

PUFF · 9th October 2006, 02:57 PM

Oh, you are right. The text is more like Arabic

not burmese one.

I agree with you that the blade has long upwarding hilt with small round pommel. They are somewhat similar to Siam's. But many dressing components (skirt, chinese shoes) just not right.

Andrew · 9th October 2006, 04:33 PM

Hi Puff. I wonder if this drawing was made by an Arab artist (non-SEA, in any event). That would explain the writing and possible combination of Burmese dress with a Siamese sword.

Andrew · 10th October 2006, 04:39 PM

Bump.

Anyone care to take a stab at translating the text?

S.Al-Anizi · 10th October 2006, 05:09 PM

Im sure that this is not arabic, as there are no arabic letters with triple dots beneath them. This is most likely farsi.

Andrew · 10th October 2006, 05:32 PM

Thanks, Saqr.

S.Al-Anizi · 10th October 2006, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Thanks, Saqr.

Always welcome, Andrew

RhysMichael · 10th October 2006, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Any comments on the sword itself, guys? If presented by itself, I'd say it looked Siamese.

I was thinking the sword looked Siamese also Andrew. But I had no idea on the outfit

Mark · 16th October 2006, 11:43 PM

I think it is depicting a Burman, though by whom it was drawn is another question. The length of the handle and shape of the pommel do suggest Thai (specifically, Rattanakosin Period), but the lacquered or dark wood scabbard with metal bands suggests more a Tai Shan style. Maybe the guy just happened to be holding a Thai daab he picked up after a battle?

The sword is fairly simplified and a bit stylized, so I think, overall, it is supposed to be a Burman and the sword handle is just artistic interpretation.

Here is my miniature (marionette) version of the same guy:

cozun · 29th October 2006, 07:45 PM

To my opinion, although very curved on the illustration, the handle and scabbard look more Khmer/Cambodian in style to my eyes.

It's just a thought, an indication, of course I might be wrong.

Serge.

Ian · 29th October 2006, 07:57 PM

I've refrained from responding to this thread for some time because I really have nothing definite to say. The dress of the warrior looks Burmese but the dha does not, at least not a typical Burmese sword that we associate with the 19th C.

The long curved handle suggests a Thai darb of roughly the 19th C. (Rattanakosin period), but Cambodian is also a possibility although it does not strike me as particularly Cambodian either given the apparent overall curvature of hilt and blade.

Perhaps there has been a certain amount of artistic license in depicting the man and his sword, or perhaps it was not painted from life but from a picture of the man and a sword inserted that happened to be around. Not the first time that occurred.

Enigmatic little portrait.

Ian.

~Alaung_Hpaya~ · 2nd March 2007, 05:49 PM

Hi all,

Here's a similar military gown courtesy of the Myanmar Ministry of Culture

RhysMichael · 3rd March 2007, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Alaung_Hpaya~

Hi all,

Here's a similar military gown courtesy of the Myanmar Ministry of Culture

Thats a great example of one thanks for posting this and welcome to the forum

Mark · 5th March 2007, 06:59 PM

Welcome to the forum. That is a very nice example, indeed. Would you happen to be Myanma yourself? We have sorely felt the lack of anyone who can translate Myanma text, and might have some knowledge or contacts for dha-related information.

~Alaung_Hpaya~ · 9th March 2007, 02:11 PM

Hi,

I can see why collecting dha can be addictive . I might start one day ,finances permitting .

Yes I am Bama ( culturally - ethnically a hotch potch ) and named after U Aung Zeya hence the username. I've grown up abroad so my ability to read even comtemporary Burmese is poor but my ability to read Pali is non existent . I'll try to help if I can with any translations.

Myanmar has always been the written name with Bama being the spoken form . ( except these days I hear lots of young people who grew up after the "change" of name who refer to themselves as Myanmar )

I can see the reasons for wanting a non-ethnocentric umbrella term like British but as the junta has no legitamacy people resent anything that they do .

That aside ...

Back to topic - The fighting dha lwe is often called Hnget Kyi Taung Dha ( meaning lit. Bird Large Feather Dha ) and one is owned by practically every family in rural areas and by many in the cities .

Many came out from under beds and floor boards during the 1988 uprisings.

Here's another drawing from Journal of a residence in the Burmham empire, and more particularly at the court of Amarapoorah 1821 showing a trooper - its that a horn or a dha ? Seems highly disproportioned if it's meant to be the latter .

Mark · 9th March 2007, 09:40 PM

OK. Myanmar is written, Bama is spoken. Thanks for the clarification.

The Western literature is all over the place, using Burmese, Burman, Bama, Mramma, Mranma, Myanma, Myanmar, and on and on.

You mentioned Pali. I have often read that official documents and inscriptions on stele and pagoda were in Pali, but I had assumed that there was a different alphabet used. Is it the same as that used for Myanmar (kind of like Latin and English)?

Anyway, back to dha. Is a Hnget Kyi Taung Dha a particular form of dha lwe, or a different (more formal? more precise?) for the dha lwe? I never know how closely transliterations into English are, but on one dha of mine there is a dedication reading (in part) "Thado Thiri Min Hla Ye Kaung Dha," and I can't figure out if that is all a name, part a title, or some combination. It makes me want to learn Burmese.

The dha in the picture you posted looks like an even more extreme stylization of the one in the picture at the top of the thread. It resembles a bit one appearing in an illustriation of Syme's "An Embassy to the Court of Ava." I have a scan somewhere, and I'll post it. It has the same radical flaring of the scabbard, and overall squat appearance. Who was the author of the reference you cited? I haven't come across it yet.

You can look forward to a lot of brain-picking from the "dha guys" here.

We have been starved for Burmese expertise.

You have a very illustrious namesake, by the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Alaung_Hpaya~

Hi,

I can see why collecting dha can be addictive . I might start one day ,finances permitting .

Yes I am Bama ( culturally - ethnically a hotch potch ) and named after U Aung Zeya hence the username. I've grown up abroad so my ability to read even comtemporary Burmese is poor but my ability to read Pali is non existent . I'll try to help if I can with any translations.

Myanmar has always been the written name with Bama being the spoken form . ( except these days I hear lots of young people who grew up after the "change" of name who refer to themselves as Myanmar )

I can see the reasons for wanting a non-ethnocentric umbrella term like British but as the junta has no legitamacy people resent anything that they do .

That aside ...

Back to topic - The fighting dha lwe is often called Hnget Kyi Taung Dha ( meaning lit. Bird Large Feather Dha ) and one is owned by practically every family in rural areas and by many in the cities .

Many came out from under beds and floor boards during the 1988 uprisings.

Here's another drawing from Journal of a residence in the Burmham empire, and more particularly at the court of Amarapoorah 1821 showing a trooper - its that a horn or a dha ? Seems highly disproportioned if it's meant to be the latter .

PUFF · 11th March 2007, 10:23 AM

Pali uses its "host" country 's alphabet. It could be written in Thai, Lanna, Mon, Burma or even Sinhala alphabet. There 's a story that Siam, Srilanka and Burma monks talk Pali in an international Buddhist meeting for they could not understand others native language.

Mark · 12th March 2007, 04:02 PM

Ah, I see. That is very interesting. Again, sort of like Latin in the early Christian church, which permitted communication across native languages.

~Alaung_Hpaya~ · 12th March 2007, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

OK. Myanmar is written, Bama is spoken. Thanks for the clarification.

The Western literature is all over the place, using Burmese, Burman, Bama, Mramma, Mranma, Myanma, Myanmar, and on and on.

You mentioned Pali. I have often read that official documents and inscriptions on stele and pagoda were in Pali, but I had assumed that there was a different alphabet used. Is it the same as that used for Myanmar (kind of like Latin and English)?

Anyway, back to dha. Is a Hnget Kyi Taung Dha a particular form of dha lwe, or a different (more formal? more precise?) for the dha lwe? I never know how closely transliterations into English are, but on one dha of mine there is a dedication reading (in part) "Thado Thiri Min Hla Ye Kaung Dha," and I can't figure out if that is all a name, part a title, or some combination. It makes me want to learn Burmese.

The dha in the picture you posted looks like an even more extreme stylization of the one in the picture at the top of the thread. It resembles a bit one appearing in an illustriation of Syme's "An Embassy to the Court of Ava." I have a scan somewhere, and I'll post it. It has the same radical flaring of the scabbard, and overall squat appearance. Who was the author of the reference you cited? I haven't come across it yet.

You can look forward to a lot of brain-picking from the "dha guys" here.

We have been starved for Burmese expertise.

You have a very illustrious namesake, by the way.

Hi Mark,

Burmese , Burman are obvious anglicisations of Bama

According to linguists ( I'm not one ) the old pronunciation of Myanmar was Mranmar . How old I'm not sure . This is based on cognates with other Tibeto-Burman languages in which words which the Bama pronounce as Y are pronounced with a R in the others .

The Rakhine ( pronounced Yakhaing by the Bama ) speak a dialect which maintains an older form . Essentially I can undertand 80-90% of Rakhine ( pronounce all your Ys as Rs and you have a different dialect

)

As far as I know the long fighting dha ( as opposed to utilitarian wood cutting dha ) has always been known colloquially as Hgnet Kyi daung . Not sure if there would have any differentiation during the times of the Burmese kings .

"Thado Thiri Min Hla Ye Kaung " is a name ( of sorts ) . It's actually full of honorifics so is likely to be a title of a nobleman rather than his actual name .

The book the picture is from is :

I don't think it's available to purchase but you can read some pages from this site :

http://dlxs.library.cornell.edu/cgi/...w=image;seq=30

Hope this helps

Mark · 12th March 2007, 06:34 PM

Yes, I have heard of Hiram Cox (he was Symes' successor as envoy to the Court of Ava - moved to Amarapura at the time of his visit). I missed his book on the Cornell site. I love that site.

~Alaung_Hpaya~ · 13th March 2007, 07:28 PM

I've done some research and indeed Thado Thiri Min Hla Ye Khaung is a title of a prince .

Thado means valour
Thiri means splendour ( same as Siri in Thai and Sri in Sri Lanka )

Both the above are Burmanised Pali words . I believe Thado Min refers to a senior prince : one of 18 allowed during the last dynasty of Konbaung.

Min means king / ruler
Hla means fair/ beautiful
Ye means brave / daring

These are Burmese words.

Not sure about Khaung ( can you show me a scan so that I can see which intonation is used ? )

Mark · 13th March 2007, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Alaung_Hpaya~

I've done some research and indeed Thado Thiri Min Hla Ye Khaung is a title of a prince .

Thado means valour
Thiri means splendour ( same as Siri in Thai and Sri in Sri Lanka )

Both the above are Burmanised Pali words . I believe Thado Min refers to a senior prince : one of 18 allowed during the last dynasty of Konbaung.

Min means king / ruler
Hla means fair/ beautiful
Ye means brave / daring

These are Burmese words.

Not sure about Khaung ( can you show me a scan so that I can see which intonation is used ? )

Wow. That could mean one of two things, either I have the dha of a very important man, or the inscription is an "embellishment." Given that the blade itself bears a more recent date, and that the plaque with the "Thado Thiri" inscription is affixed to the scabbard, I am leaning toward the second possibility, frankly. My web site seems to be down, but I will pull a photo of the inscription from my hard drive and post it later. One thing I noticed yesterday is that the words "Maung Ba" clearly are inscribed (more fluid in form), while the letters of the "Thado Thiri" dedication appear to be stamped in. More evidence of a later embellishment, perhaps.

Mark · 14th March 2007, 04:06 PM

Here are the two dated texts, the first on the blade, the second on the scabbard.

~Alaung_Hpaya~ · 15th March 2007, 04:25 PM

3 , Than Ku hta-na paing _ Kyone Kyone Kya ywa _ Thu-gyi _ Maung Kyi Nyo ko _ 1919 khu hnit a twin ya za _ wat bet ko ku nyi saung ywet tha hpwint suu pay the

Than Ku district _ Kyone Kyone Kya village _ Head _ Maung Kyi Nyo _ 1919 during the year _ for helping against ? attack ??_ given this prize / award

" This award is presented to Maung Kyi Nyo the village head of Kyone Kyone Kya village in Than Ku district in the year 1919 for helping against ? attack "

Thado Thadi / Thiri Min Hla Ye khaung let thone saung dha _ 1160 khu hnit

The sword that is always worn / used by Thado Thiri Min Hla Ye Khaung _ in the year 1160

I think Ye Khaung is the name part with Thado Thiri Min Hla being the title .

FenrisWolf · 16th March 2007, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Bump.

Anyone care to take a stab at translating the text?

Isn't that from Cole Porter? "Oh, you beautiful Dha, You great big beautiful Dha!"

Sorry, I couldn't resist, the Pun fairy bit me....

Andrew · 16th March 2007, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FenrisWolf

Isn't that from Cole Porter? "Oh, you beautiful Dha, You great big beautiful Dha!"

Sorry, I couldn't resist, the Pun fairy bit me....

lol

8th October 2006, 09:22 PM	#1
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Man with a dha ? It looks like a dha to me. It is only attributed to the 19th century and "asian" by the Smithsonian. Let me know if you all also think this is Thai

16th October 2006, 11:43 PM	#13
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I think it is depicting a Burman, though by whom it was drawn is another question. The length of the handle and shape of the pommel do suggest Thai (specifically, Rattanakosin Period), but the lacquered or dark wood scabbard with metal bands suggests more a Tai Shan style. Maybe the guy just happened to be holding a Thai daab he picked up after a battle? The sword is fairly simplified and a bit stylized, so I think, overall, it is supposed to be a Burman and the sword handle is just artistic interpretation. Here is my miniature (marionette) version of the same guy: Last edited by Mark; 5th March 2007 at 06:57 PM.

29th October 2006, 07:45 PM	#14
cozun Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ayutthaya - Thailand - most of the time that is. Posts: 7	May be from another country To my opinion, although very curved on the illustration, the handle and scabbard look more Khmer/Cambodian in style to my eyes. It's just a thought, an indication, of course I might be wrong. Serge.

29th October 2006, 07:57 PM	#15
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Don't know ... I've refrained from responding to this thread for some time because I really have nothing definite to say. The dress of the warrior looks Burmese but the dha does not, at least not a typical Burmese sword that we associate with the 19th C. The long curved handle suggests a Thai darb of roughly the 19th C. (Rattanakosin period), but Cambodian is also a possibility although it does not strike me as particularly Cambodian either given the apparent overall curvature of hilt and blade. Perhaps there has been a certain amount of artistic license in depicting the man and his sword, or perhaps it was not painted from life but from a picture of the man and a sword inserted that happened to be around. Not the first time that occurred. Enigmatic little portrait. Ian.

14th March 2007, 04:06 PM	#27
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Here are the two dated texts, the first on the blade, the second on the scabbard. Attached Images

9th October 2006, 07:57 AM	#2
Bancha Thongkomol Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 16	Burma

9th October 2006, 08:18 AM	#3
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	From the dressing and the text, I would say Burma too.

9th October 2006, 12:41 PM	#4
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Thanks to you both

9th October 2006, 02:28 PM	#5
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Very interesting stuff. The text looks arabic to me. If it is, could one of our members translate it for us? Any comments on the sword itself, guys? If presented by itself, I'd say it looked Siamese.

9th October 2006, 02:57 PM	#6
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Oh, you are right. The text is more like Arabic not burmese one. I agree with you that the blade has long upwarding hilt with small round pommel. They are somewhat similar to Siam's. But many dressing components (skirt, chinese shoes) just not right.

9th October 2006, 04:33 PM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi Puff. I wonder if this drawing was made by an Arab artist (non-SEA, in any event). That would explain the writing and possible combination of Burmese dress with a Siamese sword.

10th October 2006, 04:39 PM	#8
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Bump. Anyone care to take a stab at translating the text?

10th October 2006, 05:09 PM	#9
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Im sure that this is not arabic, as there are no arabic letters with triple dots beneath them. This is most likely farsi.

10th October 2006, 05:32 PM	#10
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Thanks, Saqr.

2nd March 2007, 05:49 PM	#16
~Alaung_Hpaya~ Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 65	Hi all, Here's a similar military gown courtesy of the Myanmar Ministry of Culture

5th March 2007, 06:59 PM	#18
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Welcome to the forum. That is a very nice example, indeed. Would you happen to be Myanma yourself? We have sorely felt the lack of anyone who can translate Myanma text, and might have some knowledge or contacts for dha-related information.

9th March 2007, 02:11 PM	#19
~Alaung_Hpaya~ Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 65	Hi, I can see why collecting dha can be addictive . I might start one day ,finances permitting . Yes I am Bama ( culturally - ethnically a hotch potch ) and named after U Aung Zeya hence the username. I've grown up abroad so my ability to read even comtemporary Burmese is poor but my ability to read Pali is non existent . I'll try to help if I can with any translations. Myanmar has always been the written name with Bama being the spoken form . ( except these days I hear lots of young people who grew up after the "change" of name who refer to themselves as Myanmar ) I can see the reasons for wanting a non-ethnocentric umbrella term like British but as the junta has no legitamacy people resent anything that they do . That aside ... Back to topic - The fighting dha lwe is often called Hnget Kyi Taung Dha ( meaning lit. Bird Large Feather Dha ) and one is owned by practically every family in rural areas and by many in the cities . Many came out from under beds and floor boards during the 1988 uprisings. Here's another drawing from Journal of a residence in the Burmham empire, and more particularly at the court of Amarapoorah 1821 showing a trooper - its that a horn or a dha ? Seems highly disproportioned if it's meant to be the latter .

11th March 2007, 10:23 AM	#21
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Pali uses its "host" country 's alphabet. It could be written in Thai, Lanna, Mon, Burma or even Sinhala alphabet. There 's a story that Siam, Srilanka and Burma monks talk Pali in an international Buddhist meeting for they could not understand others native language.

12th March 2007, 04:02 PM	#22
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Ah, I see. That is very interesting. Again, sort of like Latin in the early Christian church, which permitted communication across native languages.

12th March 2007, 06:34 PM	#24
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Yes, I have heard of Hiram Cox (he was Symes' successor as envoy to the Court of Ava - moved to Amarapura at the time of his visit). I missed his book on the Cornell site. I love that site.

13th March 2007, 07:28 PM	#25
~Alaung_Hpaya~ Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 65	I've done some research and indeed Thado Thiri Min Hla Ye Khaung is a title of a prince . Thado means valour Thiri means splendour ( same as Siri in Thai and Sri in Sri Lanka ) Both the above are Burmanised Pali words . I believe Thado Min refers to a senior prince : one of 18 allowed during the last dynasty of Konbaung. Min means king / ruler Hla means fair/ beautiful Ye means brave / daring These are Burmese words. Not sure about Khaung ( can you show me a scan so that I can see which intonation is used ? )

15th March 2007, 04:25 PM	#28
~Alaung_Hpaya~ Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 65	3 , Than Ku hta-na paing _ Kyone Kyone Kya ywa _ Thu-gyi _ Maung Kyi Nyo ko _ 1919 khu hnit a twin ya za _ wat bet ko ku nyi saung ywet tha hpwint suu pay the Than Ku district _ Kyone Kyone Kya village _ Head _ Maung Kyi Nyo _ 1919 during the year _ for helping against ? attack ??_ given this prize / award " This award is presented to Maung Kyi Nyo the village head of Kyone Kyone Kya village in Than Ku district in the year 1919 for helping against ? attack " Thado Thadi / Thiri Min Hla Ye khaung let thone saung dha _ 1160 khu hnit The sword that is always worn / used by Thado Thiri Min Hla Ye Khaung _ in the year 1160 I think Ye Khaung is the name part with Thado Thiri Min Hla being the title .