EUROPEAN PISTOL

[libra]

Hi everyone

I bought recently this pistol and I want your opinion if it is an antique one or a copy.
It has marks on it 1847 St Etienn.At all parts there are marks "MM" even at the screws.
Thanks a lot.

[fernando]

Something worth to analize.
The lock 'might' be French, but the barrel has marks from the Ulm proof house in Germany.
Does the lock reads Etienn instead of Etienne ?. That is very strange
Some other member will comment further?
Fernando

[libra]

Hi Fernando.
Thanks a lot for the information about the barrel.
The lock writting is St Etienne but the ''e'' is not visible at the picture that I have provide.
Does this change something?Is the pistol antique or not?
I dont know a lot of things about this item.I just liked it and bought it.Thats why I am looking for informations.
Thanks a lot again for your answer.
All the best.
Aristeidis

[fernando]

Hi Aristeidis,
Let's see what other knowledged members say about it.
Judging by the pictures, the stock has a decent look.
But it is highly improbable that the flintlock system was still being made in 1847. This type of pistol was active some eighty years before this date.
Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

It cannot be denied this is a very handsome pistol, and with my limited knowledge of guns, I can only note that the St. Etienn inscribed on the lock with date above seems odd. The inscribed 'date' , then the stamped 'date' on the barrel with misaligned numbers seems incongruent.

As Fernando has noted, the 1847 date presumably intended to be a production date seems late for flintlocks, despite the fact that they remained preferred in many regions. In colonial regions such as North Africa, flintlocks and even matchlocks remained in use into the 20th century by tribal peoples, much as they did in Arabia and many other areas.
In frontier America, especially in wilderness areas, the flintlock remained of choice as it was easier to procure powder and fashion ammunition than to obtain percussion cap materials or cartridges in later cases. The flintlock remained somewhat universal in those kinds of situations.

This gun, incongruent as it seems in parts, might have been assembled in a trade situation, perhaps even in America where the St. Etienne guns were known to have arrived in number for trade in areas like St. Louis etc. From its appearance it looks more like an 18th century British gun to me, but I am not as familiar with 18th century French models. The script looks 19th century in style, so perhaps industrious merchant put this together for sale in American frontier? Just optimistic thoughts

[kahnjar1]

The proof marks in my opinion are definately NOT Belgian or French. I believe that the Eagle over the letters SP is the German Black Powder Proof mark used from 1951 onwards. The mark to the extreme right looks remarkably like the ULM Proofhouse mark (an antler) used from the same date. If some other Member has the History of Proof Marks by Mr Lee Kennett, they might like to confirm my thinking. So.................what do we think now about age?
Regards Stu

[Philip]

The previous posts about the barrel proof-marks rule out French origin of that component, and with my copy of Jean Boudriot, ARMES A FEU FRANCAISES: MODELES REGLEMENTAIRES (Paris, 1981) in front of me, I'd like to add the following observations:
1. None of the regulation-pattern French military pistols of the pre-Franco-Prussian War era are stocked-up like this example. Note the bulbous brass buttcap with the slender extended langets or tangs on each side, a feature seen on none of the French models.
2. France officially switched to the percussion system in 1822, and the divers models of handguns and shoulder-fired weapons (fusils & mousquetons) were standardized mechanically into a unified "system" common to all. The System of 1822 was based on PERCUSSION locks of very similar design (albeit in different sizes for pistols and long-guns), which started out as conversions of the earlier flint locks, although later production runs used entirely new parts. Pistols in the System of 1822 comprised 3 basic configurations, those issued to the cavalry, the gendarmerie, and to all officers. The first two guns, which were issued up to the 1850s or so, had butts of "bird beak" shape, the metal caps having a single dorsal tang, not two lateral ones. The officers model had a simple "dome" buttcap.
3. The next major system to be adopted was that of 1842, and it included one pistol, the gendarme's model of 1842 which like the long guns had a "back-action" percussion lock (i.e. with the internal mainspring located BEHIND the hammer rather than in front as in the previous, flintlock-derived percussion conversions). There was also an officer's pistol, Mod. 1833, which was not associated with a full system, but again that had a back-action percussion lock and furniture clearly derived from civilian handguns.
4. The internal parts of the lock on the gun posted here are not identical to the workings of the System 1822 converted flintlocks (the conversion did not require changing anything inside the lockplate), and the quality of fit is noticeably inferior to the original French manufacture.

The gun that is posted on this thread looks to be an export model, manufactured long after the fact to be sold inexpensively, or traded for local commodities, by Europeans in Africa and parts of Asia and Latin America. Many of these were styled after well-known European military arms, which were themselves exported worldwide after they became obsolete at home, and the St. Etienne markings were undoubtedly put on to enhance the gun's marketability. Gun factories in Liege, Belgium, made boatloads of these weapons into the early 20th cent., although there was some manufacture in Britain and other European countries as well. The Belgian guns are a bit short on good looks but are sturdy and reliable; I've shot one or two in my time and they aren't at all bad.

German-made guns were sold in quantity in another "developing country", in this case the US of the first half of the 19th cent. According to a rather uncomplimentary review in THE AMERICAN SHOOTER'S MANUAL (1827), these products were "...low-priced and badly-made and it would be well could their importation be prohibited, as nineteen-twentieths of the guns which have bursted in this country were German or Dutch. ... they are tinselled off in such a manner as to be quite captivating; they are, however, in general nothing more than very dangerous man traps, and we should be glad to see their use entirely discontinued in this country." [passage quoted in Robert Held, THE AGE OF FIREARMS (NY: Harper and Row, 1957), p 157.]

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

The proof marks in my opinion are definately NOT Belgian or French. I believe that the Eagle over the letters SP is the German Black Powder Proof mark used from 1951 onwards. The mark to the extreme right looks remarkably like the ULM Proofhouse mark (an antler) used from the same date. If some other Member has the History of Proof Marks by Mr Lee Kennett, they might like to confirm my thinking. So.................what do we think now about age?
Regards Stu

Further to my comments re the proof marks, my suggestion is that this pistol is a modern made item for the blackpowder shooters, and possibly reenactment people. There are many types of old long guns, pistols and revolvers made specifically for this use by MANY makers.

[fernando]

Great contribution, Philip; thanks for sharing the knowledge.
I would support your reasoning on post #8, Stu.
Fernando

[RDGAC]

While in no way wishing to sound like a wet blanket, I have to wonder: is it possible that this is one of the much-dreaded "Khyber Pass Guns" manufactured in North Pakistan/South Afghanistan? From the pics the quality of the finish looks good - what I've read on the subject leads me to expect a fairly dodgy finish from a lot of these pieces, including the inclusions of a fair tonnage of black-brown filling material - but the mixture of dates, proof marks et al makes me think somewhat along those lines. Stylistically, in fact, I'd suggest (and expect to be corrected having done so by the experts hereabouts) that it bears quite a striking resemblance to the British Heavy Dragoon pistol of the mid-18th century (see http://www.firearmscollector.com/ima...0110%20018.jpg for instance). Anyway, just the twopenn'orth of a newbie.

Meredydd Jones

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by RDGAC

While in no way wishing to sound like a wet blanket, I have to wonder: is it possible that this is one of the much-dreaded "Khyber Pass Guns" manufactured in North Pakistan/South Afghanistan? From the pics the quality of the finish looks good - what I've read on the subject leads me to expect a fairly dodgy finish from a lot of these pieces, including the inclusions of a fair tonnage of black-brown filling material - but the mixture of dates, proof marks et al makes me think somewhat along those lines. Stylistically, in fact, I'd suggest (and expect to be corrected having done so by the experts hereabouts) that it bears quite a striking resemblance to the British Heavy Dragoon pistol of the mid-18th century (see http://www.firearmscollector.com/ima...0110%20018.jpg for instance). Anyway, just the twopenn'orth of a newbie.

Meredydd Jones

Unlikely to be Khyer as any of these that I have seen do not have proof marks and most are notmarked at all.