Vietnam or Cambodia?

wilked aka Khun Deng · 3rd February 2007, 06:00 AM

During my last trip I picked up this piece at my favorite haunt - Chat tu Chak market in Bangkok (section 1 if you'd like to check them out Puff). The dealer had several that he claimed were Vietnamese swords from a dig in Bayang, Ta Keo Province, Cambodia. I did check this out on the map and there is an old ruin in Ta Keo province called Bayang along the cambodian/Vietnamese border. The largest sword had much the same segmented handle style, although in most the segments went right to the guard whereas this one is belled out at the guard. All were either brass or silver (had to scratch through the corrosion to tell and all were corroded, locked, into the scabbard save one. The scabbards were entirely covered with multiple thin bands of silver (some that broke at the touch). The one blade that was out of the scabbard was so corroded that the only thing identifiable was the profile. A profile that held the same curve as a Dha but tapered slowly from hilt to point with no belly swell.
Obviously I'm describing these because I forgot my camera that day.
The one below was in the best shape and was the only one whose scabbard wasn't completely covered with brass or silver.
All comments are appreciated as well as advise on whether I dare to try and clean and open it.

Dan

Andrew · 3rd February 2007, 04:06 PM

Hi Dan. Good to hear from you.

That's a pretty cool sword. I'm always extremely skeptical of "excavated" swords. Both Mark and I have a number of heavily corroded swords, all of them suspiciously similar.

Your example, however, seems different, and your description of the others is very exciting. I have one example with a lotus bulb pommel and petal/leaf detailing at the ferrule nearly identical to yours. These features seem Thai to me, Ayutthaya period.

Let's see what the others have to say.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 3rd February 2007, 05:26 PM

Good to be back where I have some connectivity again.

The features seemed Thai to me also (especially the bell), but Thai swords don't have the small round guard and all of these had it invarying sizes. I have seen this on swords claiming to come from Laos and Cambobia, but had thought Vietmanese were more of a Chinese variant. All the others had the same even segmenting on the handle and none of them had any kind of pommel (appeared to have been made that way). The largest had about a 35% bend the last third of the handle (much like a Pira). Another distinct trait was that all the scabbards, save the one I puchased, tapered to the point also, definately not a trait I've seen in Thai or Burmese. Really wish I'd have brought the camera that day.

Dan

PUFF · 4th February 2007, 07:47 AM

A good example of Vietnamese 's sword 's "Pra-Seang-Dahb-Viet", a diplomatic item from Vietnamese 's ruler during king Rama 1st era (early 19th cent). The blade 's 4th one from the top.

PUFF · 4th February 2007, 07:50 AM

By the way, does your lotus ferrule have 12 petals ?

Andrew · 4th February 2007, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUFF

By the way, does your lotus ferrule have 12 petals ?

Don't tease us, Man!

What's the significance of this?

Andrew · 4th February 2007, 05:27 PM

Here's the one I mentioned above:

Puff, can you describe the the other three swords in that display you posted? What's the text say? Is that a double-edged "leaf" blade, like the one in the Royal regalia?

wilked aka Khun Deng · 5th February 2007, 04:58 AM

Andrew, yours is extremely similiar in the design work, I wonder if that is typical of the period of the locale.

Puff mine has 15 petals at the ferrule and like Andrew I'm interested to know the signifigance.

Deng

Andrew · 5th February 2007, 05:34 AM

My sword has 12 petals.

The wire work is silver and copper, and the handle has been repaired. Given the short length and appearance of the repair, it's almost surely been shortened. Not sure what the metal sheeting on the handle is made of. Could be silver.

PUFF · 5th February 2007, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Don't tease us, Man!

What's the significance of this?

Calm down, my friend, I do not actually know the significance of the number. It 's just typical feature for many of old lotus-ferrule Dahb we have. There are hypothesis on this, of course.

The similar construct 's also occure in SEA religious architectures (something with Khmer 's believe). We have a lotus ferrule example with obvious 12-corner construct, similar to 12-corner Stupa. My hypothesis is that 12-petal lotus ferrule is an older form and lotus with more petals has been evolved over time. I just wonder if the same construct was found as far as Vietnam, where Chinese influence 's stronger than Khmer 's

This is another of example of the later lotus ferrule. The petals are 6+6 and there are only shallow 6 marks on its guard.IMO Dahb 's ferrule 's has been seriously evolved during mid-late Ayuthaya era.

-------------

And yes... those blades are royal's and one of them 's leaf-shape blade (recon. of a royal blade from Ayuthaya period).

3rd February 2007, 06:00 AM	#1
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Vietnam or Cambodia? During my last trip I picked up this piece at my favorite haunt - Chat tu Chak market in Bangkok (section 1 if you'd like to check them out Puff). The dealer had several that he claimed were Vietnamese swords from a dig in Bayang, Ta Keo Province, Cambodia. I did check this out on the map and there is an old ruin in Ta Keo province called Bayang along the cambodian/Vietnamese border. The largest sword had much the same segmented handle style, although in most the segments went right to the guard whereas this one is belled out at the guard. All were either brass or silver (had to scratch through the corrosion to tell and all were corroded, locked, into the scabbard save one. The scabbards were entirely covered with multiple thin bands of silver (some that broke at the touch). The one blade that was out of the scabbard was so corroded that the only thing identifiable was the profile. A profile that held the same curve as a Dha but tapered slowly from hilt to point with no belly swell. Obviously I'm describing these because I forgot my camera that day. The one below was in the best shape and was the only one whose scabbard wasn't completely covered with brass or silver. All comments are appreciated as well as advise on whether I dare to try and clean and open it. Dan Attached Images

3rd February 2007, 05:26 PM	#3
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Good to be back. Good to be back where I have some connectivity again. The features seemed Thai to me also (especially the bell), but Thai swords don't have the small round guard and all of these had it invarying sizes. I have seen this on swords claiming to come from Laos and Cambobia, but had thought Vietmanese were more of a Chinese variant. All the others had the same even segmenting on the handle and none of them had any kind of pommel (appeared to have been made that way). The largest had about a 35% bend the last third of the handle (much like a Pira). Another distinct trait was that all the scabbards, save the one I puchased, tapered to the point also, definately not a trait I've seen in Thai or Burmese. Really wish I'd have brought the camera that day. Dan

4th February 2007, 07:47 AM	#4
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	A good example of Vietnamese 's sword 's "Pra-Seang-Dahb-Viet", a diplomatic item from Vietnamese 's ruler during king Rama 1st era (early 19th cent). The blade 's 4th one from the top. Last edited by PUFF; 4th February 2007 at 01:28 PM.

3rd February 2007, 04:06 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi Dan. Good to hear from you. That's a pretty cool sword. I'm always extremely skeptical of "excavated" swords. Both Mark and I have a number of heavily corroded swords, all of them suspiciously similar. Your example, however, seems different, and your description of the others is very exciting. I have one example with a lotus bulb pommel and petal/leaf detailing at the ferrule nearly identical to yours. These features seem Thai to me, Ayutthaya period. Let's see what the others have to say.

4th February 2007, 07:50 AM	#5
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	By the way, does your lotus ferrule have 12 petals ?

4th February 2007, 05:27 PM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Here's the one I mentioned above: Puff, can you describe the the other three swords in that display you posted? What's the text say? Is that a double-edged "leaf" blade, like the one in the Royal regalia?

5th February 2007, 04:58 AM	#8
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Andrew, yours is extremely similiar in the design work, I wonder if that is typical of the period of the locale. Puff mine has 15 petals at the ferrule and like Andrew I'm interested to know the signifigance. Deng

5th February 2007, 05:34 AM	#9
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	My sword has 12 petals. The wire work is silver and copper, and the handle has been repaired. Given the short length and appearance of the repair, it's almost surely been shortened. Not sure what the metal sheeting on the handle is made of. Could be silver.