Interesting Wootz Tulwar for comment

Atlantia · 15th November 2010, 12:12 AM

I've bought another Tulwar for my own collection. It has a long slender Shamshir type blade, Silver foil covered hilt, overall length is approx 36".
It has some interesting points, the weight is on the heavy side, at 1100g. The hilt is slightly larger than I'm used to. The quillions are slightly asymetric with one having a very pronounced dome end and the other much flatter, as though there was meant to be a knuckle bow, but the plating shows otherwise. Blade has some intersting features also, tightly grained wootz, very rigid, a couple of flaws in the wootz.
Overall this feels like an earlier examle than I usually see (and have owned).
Comments/information most welcome.

carlitobrigante · 15th November 2010, 04:05 PM

no info i can give mate other than to say nice sword!

Atlantia · 15th November 2010, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitobrigante

no info i can give mate other than to say nice sword!

Ello mate!

Thank you very much.

Hopefully it will engender some discussion.
Perhaps some daylight pictures will help?

carlitobrigante · 15th November 2010, 09:56 PM

blade looks in very good shape, a nice long blade too..

thats a fair old chunk of wootz going on right there

the silver foil covered hilt uncommon on these? cant remember seeing it before on the admittedly few ive seen.

Atlantia · 15th November 2010, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitobrigante

blade looks in very good shape, a nice long blade too..

thats a fair old chunk of wootz going on right there

the silver foil covered hilt uncommon on these? cant remember seeing it before on the admittedly few ive seen.

Well, I've had a fully silvered hilt before, but it had a shortened and rather wide european trade blade.
This hilt has really thick silver on it. Sadly there is a lot of bubbles on the other side and inside the top of the disk there are some losses, but I guess it could be worse.
The blade has a strangely 'oval' cross section. It looks well worn at first glance, and the cutting edge looks as though it must have been sharpened many many times.
But when you examine it, there are no signs of sharpening, no deep scratches, it looks like it was made that way. A strange and interesting piece for me.
Compared with some of the pieces we see shown here, it is rather plain and ordinary. But I have faith in its age and it feels like a true warrior.

Best
Gene

Rick · 16th November 2010, 01:13 AM

Yes mate, it could be much worse .

Blacksmith · 16th November 2010, 01:23 AM

Hello, I bought a similar tulwar last year when I was traveling in India, from Udaipur, Rajasthan. The blade is like yours with same kind of wootz, mine only has a scarf welding near the hilt. There has been also a silver plating on the hilt, now almost gone. I saw a lot of tulwars like that ( a pile of them...), the blades with "worn out" of style. The seller said ( an antique dealer) that this kind of tulwars are easy to find in Rajasthan and the blade style is typical on Rajasthan tulwars. His opinion was that these are from end of 1700, beginning of 1800. I paid 120 euros of mine..

Rick · 16th November 2010, 03:21 AM

Can you upload some photos of the swords and a close up of each sword's pattern ?

It would be a great contribution to the knowledge base here and would be much appreciated .

Atlantia · 16th November 2010, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Yes mate, it could be much worse .

Oooh, that looks interesting Rick

Can we see the whole sword?

Atlantia · 16th November 2010, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blacksmith

Hello, I bought a similar tulwar last year when I was traveling in India, from Udaipur, Rajasthan. The blade is like yours with same kind of wootz, mine only has a scarf welding near the hilt. There has been also a silver plating on the hilt, now almost gone. I saw a lot of tulwars like that ( a pile of them...), the blades with "worn out" of style. The seller said ( an antique dealer) that this kind of tulwars are easy to find in Rajasthan and the blade style is typical on Rajasthan tulwars. His opinion was that these are from end of 1700, beginning of 1800. I paid 120 euros of mine..

Hi Blacksmith,

Great story! A pile of wootz tulwars! (Where's my passport!!) It would be quite a way to go for me to get some more though

I agree with Rick, I'd love to see it.

Thanks
Gene

Atlantia · 16th November 2010, 12:27 PM

Here are some daylight pictures, note the interesting flaws and joins in the metal.

Rick · 16th November 2010, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Oooh, that looks interesting Rick

Can we see the whole sword?

Sure :

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=kirach

Atlantia · 16th November 2010, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Sure :

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=kirach

That's a fantastic sword Rick! Love it !!!!

Rick · 16th November 2010, 09:24 PM

Ah, to have as much silver cladding left as yours does .

Good thrusting sword, that Kirach .

Blacksmith · 20th November 2010, 12:21 AM

Hello all and sorry about the delayd answer. I have been a member for a long time but haven`t introduce myself. So, my name is Timo and Im a blacksmith from Finland. I collect indo-persian weapons and I have travelled in India quite a many times, visiting museums and antique stores and collecting information.

Im sorry, but on that day I saw the pile of the swords (it was really a pile, a dozens of tulwars lying on the floor on the back of the antique dealers room) I didn`t have a camera with me. Otherwise I would not regret that so much but I was offered a real rarity and that was something I`l like to have a picture now.
It was a Rajasthani style hilted tulwar with one side of the blade been damascus and other side a nice, clear pattern wootz. Have any ideas how that kind of blade have been made? I have make damascus myself and I know that the welding temperature to make damascus or forge welding is so high that in that temperature you will loose the hardness and the pattern from the wootz.
The dealer asked 6000 euros, but that was way over my travelling budget,though now I think that I should have bought the sword and take a credit card for use..

So, a normal looking tulwar with nice gold koftgari handle and a blade with other side of mechanical damascus and other wootz. Any ideas?

Atlantia · 20th November 2010, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blacksmith

Hello all and sorry about the delayd answer. I have been a member for a long time but haven`t introduce myself. So, my name is Timo and Im a blacksmith from Finland. I collect indo-persian weapons and I have travelled in India quite a many times, visiting museums and antique stores and collecting information.

Im sorry, but on that day I saw the pile of the swords (it was really a pile, a dozens of tulwars lying on the floor on the back of the antique dealers room) I didn`t have a camera with me. Otherwise I would not regret that so much but I was offered a real rarity and that was something I`l like to have a picture now.
It was a Rajasthani style hilted tulwar with one side of the blade been damascus and other side a nice, clear pattern wootz. Have any ideas how that kind of blade have been made? I have make damascus myself and I know that the welding temperature to make damascus or forge welding is so high that in that temperature you will loose the hardness and the pattern from the wootz.
The dealer asked 6000 euros, but that was way over my travelling budget,though now I think that I should have bought the sword and take a credit card for use..

So, a normal looking tulwar with nice gold koftgari handle and a blade with other side of mechanical damascus and other wootz. Any ideas?

Hi 'Blacksmith'
Thanks for coming in on this discussion.
Do you still have the similar sword to mine that you bought? If so I'd like to see pictures of that one.

As for the dual sided blade you saw, that sounds familiar. Have blades of that type been discussed here before?
We see fine wootz blades with joins and even repairs in the blades where the pattern is retained.
As a total novice I would assume that to join the two sides of the blade, the pattern welded side would be formed first and introduced to the wootz side as a final part of the wootz sides forming process.
I must say though that there is a lot of difference between the hardness of wootz from blade to blade.
This Indian wootz Tulwar of mine for example is quite hard and inflexible, while the examples of persian wootz that I have seems to be a lot more flexible and comparitively 'softer'.

Rick · 20th November 2010, 02:52 PM

If I recall some several years ago we discussed an Indo Persian sword that had one plain side and one of wootz .

Possibly it was in Artzi's collection ???

Jens Nordlunde · 20th November 2010, 05:24 PM

It's a nice silver plated tulwar you are showing, and the plating seem to be rather thick. I don't know from where it is, but a good guess could be Deccan or south Rajasthan.

Hello Timo,
It is said that good weapons in India are more expensive that in Europe, and this may be right, but the tulwar you describe is a rare thing – very rare. Besides, you might have been able to convince him that you were only a poor tourist who would like to help him, so he could feed his family. So in order to help each other, he would have to reduce the price

.

Of all the weapons made in India, only relatively few were high quality weapons, so good Indian weapons are not cheap, and they get more and more rare, as some ends up in museums, never to get out again, while others end up in private collections where they may stay for 30 or 40 years, or maybe even longer.

How these blades were made I don’t know, but as far as I recall, neither Sachse in ‘Damaszener Stahl’ or Hoyland and Gilmour in ‘Medieval Islamic Swords and Swordmakers’ writes anything about it. Personally I think it was a master sword maker showing off.

Jens

Blacksmith · 20th November 2010, 08:52 PM

Hi Atlantia. Yes I still have the sword but it is `under construction` at the moment. I ´m polishing the blade ( it had some pitting) and re-aciding it. The pattern was quite faint on the other side. When its ready I will send some pictures.

And Jens, you are right, the weapons can be a lot more expencier in India than, for example, On London Antique Arms Fair. On the other hand there is more possibilities to make a good found for a reasonable price but that demands travelling inside the country. And it seems that, also there, the quality stuff is coming more difficult to find every year.

Regards, Timo

15th November 2010, 12:12 AM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Interesting Wootz Tulwar for comment (another) I've bought another Tulwar for my own collection. It has a long slender Shamshir type blade, Silver foil covered hilt, overall length is approx 36". It has some interesting points, the weight is on the heavy side, at 1100g. The hilt is slightly larger than I'm used to. The quillions are slightly asymetric with one having a very pronounced dome end and the other much flatter, as though there was meant to be a knuckle bow, but the plating shows otherwise. Blade has some intersting features also, tightly grained wootz, very rigid, a couple of flaws in the wootz. Overall this feels like an earlier examle than I usually see (and have owned). Comments/information most welcome. Attached Images Last edited by Atlantia; 15th November 2010 at 09:12 AM.

16th November 2010, 01:13 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Yes mate, it could be much worse . Attached Images

16th November 2010, 12:27 PM	#11
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Here are some daylight pictures, note the interesting flaws and joins in the metal. Attached Images

20th November 2010, 05:24 PM	#18
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	It's a nice silver plated tulwar you are showing, and the plating seem to be rather thick. I don't know from where it is, but a good guess could be Deccan or south Rajasthan. Hello Timo, It is said that good weapons in India are more expensive that in Europe, and this may be right, but the tulwar you describe is a rare thing – very rare. Besides, you might have been able to convince him that you were only a poor tourist who would like to help him, so he could feed his family. So in order to help each other, he would have to reduce the price. Of all the weapons made in India, only relatively few were high quality weapons, so good Indian weapons are not cheap, and they get more and more rare, as some ends up in museums, never to get out again, while others end up in private collections where they may stay for 30 or 40 years, or maybe even longer. How these blades were made I don’t know, but as far as I recall, neither Sachse in ‘Damaszener Stahl’ or Hoyland and Gilmour in ‘Medieval Islamic Swords and Swordmakers’ writes anything about it. Personally I think it was a master sword maker showing off. Jens

15th November 2010, 04:05 PM	#2
carlitobrigante Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Solihull, UK Posts: 81	no info i can give mate other than to say nice sword!

15th November 2010, 09:56 PM	#4
carlitobrigante Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Solihull, UK Posts: 81	blade looks in very good shape, a nice long blade too.. thats a fair old chunk of wootz going on right there the silver foil covered hilt uncommon on these? cant remember seeing it before on the admittedly few ive seen.

16th November 2010, 01:23 AM	#7
Blacksmith Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 98	Hello, I bought a similar tulwar last year when I was traveling in India, from Udaipur, Rajasthan. The blade is like yours with same kind of wootz, mine only has a scarf welding near the hilt. There has been also a silver plating on the hilt, now almost gone. I saw a lot of tulwars like that ( a pile of them...), the blades with "worn out" of style. The seller said ( an antique dealer) that this kind of tulwars are easy to find in Rajasthan and the blade style is typical on Rajasthan tulwars. His opinion was that these are from end of 1700, beginning of 1800. I paid 120 euros of mine..

16th November 2010, 03:21 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Can you upload some photos of the swords and a close up of each sword's pattern ? It would be a great contribution to the knowledge base here and would be much appreciated .

16th November 2010, 09:24 PM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Ah, to have as much silver cladding left as yours does . Good thrusting sword, that Kirach .

20th November 2010, 12:21 AM	#15
Blacksmith Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 98	Hello all and sorry about the delayd answer. I have been a member for a long time but haven`t introduce myself. So, my name is Timo and Im a blacksmith from Finland. I collect indo-persian weapons and I have travelled in India quite a many times, visiting museums and antique stores and collecting information. Im sorry, but on that day I saw the pile of the swords (it was really a pile, a dozens of tulwars lying on the floor on the back of the antique dealers room) I didn`t have a camera with me. Otherwise I would not regret that so much but I was offered a real rarity and that was something I`l like to have a picture now. It was a Rajasthani style hilted tulwar with one side of the blade been damascus and other side a nice, clear pattern wootz. Have any ideas how that kind of blade have been made? I have make damascus myself and I know that the welding temperature to make damascus or forge welding is so high that in that temperature you will loose the hardness and the pattern from the wootz. The dealer asked 6000 euros, but that was way over my travelling budget,though now I think that I should have bought the sword and take a credit card for use.. So, a normal looking tulwar with nice gold koftgari handle and a blade with other side of mechanical damascus and other wootz. Any ideas?

20th November 2010, 02:52 PM	#17
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	If I recall some several years ago we discussed an Indo Persian sword that had one plain side and one of wootz . Possibly it was in Artzi's collection ???

20th November 2010, 08:52 PM	#19
Blacksmith Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 98	Hi Atlantia. Yes I still have the sword but it is `under construction` at the moment. I ´m polishing the blade ( it had some pitting) and re-aciding it. The pattern was quite faint on the other side. When its ready I will send some pictures. And Jens, you are right, the weapons can be a lot more expencier in India than, for example, On London Antique Arms Fair. On the other hand there is more possibilities to make a good found for a reasonable price but that demands travelling inside the country. And it seems that, also there, the quality stuff is coming more difficult to find every year. Regards, Timo