Tool marks

JeffS · 12th March 2023, 03:34 AM

Any thoughts on what would create these marks? I would normally suspect a power tool, but these appear to be old and limited in area impacted. This is a Kachin style dha marked with the "running tiger" stamp that has been attributed to HuSa on this forum. Where human-powered sharpening wheels in use in early 20th C in this region?

Rick · 12th March 2023, 04:05 AM

I would think so Jeff. The foot powered grindstone has been in use for centuries and I cannot think of any tool other than a grindstone that would leave such evenly spaced marks on the steel.

Battara · 12th March 2023, 08:33 AM

I'm with Rick. I've had to polish marks like these out of blades before. They are usually grind marks and are harder to get out. They aggravate the snot out of me.

Sajen · 12th March 2023, 01:04 PM

Yes, I agree with Rick and Jose, power tool marks.

JBG163 · 12th March 2023, 01:04 PM

Probably grinstone yes, it could also be angle grinder, but generally, it is less spaced for angle grinder

Ian · 12th March 2023, 02:34 PM

Hi Jeff,

I also think some form of power tool, using either human power or other means. These are typical "chatter" marks from a coarse grinder.

In my experience with HuSa dha these grinding marks are common, although not usually as deep as your examples..

werecow · 12th March 2023, 07:27 PM

Could you post a picture of the entire sword for context (and because swords are fun to look at)?

Edster · 12th March 2023, 08:33 PM

I'm not convinced that the marks are the results of a powered grinding wheel. The marks are too patterned (narrow & broad marks) to have been ground. The pattern changes slightly along the blade as if they follow the contour of the blade and the edge taper. The edge looks rough ground due to the randomness of the marks and back & forth as one would use a grinder.

Are the marks on both sides of the blade? Are the marks along the full length of the blade? Would appreciate a pic of the entire blade. Also, can you get a micro shot of a mark pair?

What would be the purpose of modifying the blade so as to produce the marks?

I can't yet offer an alternative tool source of the marks; just that it's not from a wheeled grinder.

JeffS · 13th March 2023, 02:18 AM

Additional pictures as requested.
1.& 2. For context and fun

3. Full extent of marks being discussed
4. Close-up of marks
5. Other side, can see course edge marks but no "run away" chaater on this side.

Edster · 13th March 2023, 03:19 AM

JeffS

Thanks for the informative pics. Just a guess, but it looks like the blade may have been struck by a rotating machine with spaced hardened blades not unlike a simple cotton gin. Either on purpose to remove stuck something in the machine or by accident. Not the best illustration of a cotton gin attached, but you get the idea. I can see no reason for marking the blade of such a beautiful sword as part of its fabrication.

http://jimsfortheloveofhistory.blogs...-whitneys.html

Best,
Ed

Ian · 13th March 2023, 08:28 AM

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the new pictures. They seem to solve the riddle. If you look at the picture with the "running tiger" mark in the top left corner, you can see the same intermittent marks on the actual blade edge. It appears the offending tool was used to sharpen the edge. Perhaps a hand held tool against a fixed blade, or perhaps running the edge along a fixed tool.

At some point the blade and tool became misaligned. and the grinding tool departed from the edge and rode up the blade, creating a sweeping series of marks along the blade, initially deeper near the edge and getting less so along the way as the blade was removed from contact. The same problem looks as though it occurred several times, although less seriously.

I doubt this happened with the original manufacture of the blade. Probably some time later, by someone who did not know what they were doing. The sharpening tool might have been quite small, maybe something like a Dremel wheel. I've seen attempts to "decorate" Filipino blades using a Dremel wheel and it looks somewhat similar to your marks.

Incidentally, in the "running tiger" picture, you have a good example of the usual faint grinding marks running obliquely across the blade. Those look like a "fine grind" finish. The next stage would be polishing, but the HuSa blades don't often get polished smooth in my experience.

JeffS · 13th March 2023, 02:12 PM

Guess there is nothing to do but polish it out. That is going to take some elbow grease. Upside is it may have a fine hairpin pattern.

Jens Nordlunde · 17th March 2023, 06:33 PM

Here you can see how I did it.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=grinding

David R · 17th March 2023, 11:01 PM

Old painting of sharpening.

12th March 2023, 03:34 AM	#1
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 343	Tool marks Any thoughts on what would create these marks? I would normally suspect a power tool, but these appear to be old and limited in area impacted. This is a Kachin style dha marked with the "running tiger" stamp that has been attributed to HuSa on this forum. Where human-powered sharpening wheels in use in early 20th C in this region? Attached Images

12th March 2023, 02:34 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Hi Jeff, I also think some form of power tool, using either human power or other means. These are typical "chatter" marks from a coarse grinder. In my experience with HuSa dha these grinding marks are common, although not usually as deep as your examples.. Last edited by Ian; 12th March 2023 at 02:50 PM.

13th March 2023, 02:18 AM	#9
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 343	Additional pictures as requested. 1.& 2. For context and fun 3. Full extent of marks being discussed 4. Close-up of marks 5. Other side, can see course edge marks but no "run away" chaater on this side. Attached Images

13th March 2023, 08:28 AM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Hi Jeff, Thanks for the new pictures. They seem to solve the riddle. If you look at the picture with the "running tiger" mark in the top left corner, you can see the same intermittent marks on the actual blade edge. It appears the offending tool was used to sharpen the edge. Perhaps a hand held tool against a fixed blade, or perhaps running the edge along a fixed tool. At some point the blade and tool became misaligned. and the grinding tool departed from the edge and rode up the blade, creating a sweeping series of marks along the blade, initially deeper near the edge and getting less so along the way as the blade was removed from contact. The same problem looks as though it occurred several times, although less seriously. I doubt this happened with the original manufacture of the blade. Probably some time later, by someone who did not know what they were doing. The sharpening tool might have been quite small, maybe something like a Dremel wheel. I've seen attempts to "decorate" Filipino blades using a Dremel wheel and it looks somewhat similar to your marks. Incidentally, in the "running tiger" picture, you have a good example of the usual faint grinding marks running obliquely across the blade. Those look like a "fine grind" finish. The next stage would be polishing, but the HuSa blades don't often get polished smooth in my experience. Last edited by Ian; 13th March 2023 at 10:20 AM.

17th March 2023, 11:01 PM	#14
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Grindstone Old painting of sharpening. Attached Images

12th March 2023, 04:05 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I would think so Jeff. The foot powered grindstone has been in use for centuries and I cannot think of any tool other than a grindstone that would leave such evenly spaced marks on the steel.

12th March 2023, 08:33 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I'm with Rick. I've had to polish marks like these out of blades before. They are usually grind marks and are harder to get out. They aggravate the snot out of me.

12th March 2023, 01:04 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Yes, I agree with Rick and Jose, power tool marks.

12th March 2023, 01:04 PM	#5
JBG163 Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: France Posts: 207	Probably grinstone yes, it could also be angle grinder, but generally, it is less spaced for angle grinder

12th March 2023, 07:27 PM	#7
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 498	Could you post a picture of the entire sword for context (and because swords are fun to look at)?

12th March 2023, 08:33 PM	#8
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	I'm not convinced that the marks are the results of a powered grinding wheel. The marks are too patterned (narrow & broad marks) to have been ground. The pattern changes slightly along the blade as if they follow the contour of the blade and the edge taper. The edge looks rough ground due to the randomness of the marks and back & forth as one would use a grinder. Are the marks on both sides of the blade? Are the marks along the full length of the blade? Would appreciate a pic of the entire blade. Also, can you get a micro shot of a mark pair? What would be the purpose of modifying the blade so as to produce the marks? I can't yet offer an alternative tool source of the marks; just that it's not from a wheeled grinder.

13th March 2023, 03:19 AM	#10
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	JeffS Thanks for the informative pics. Just a guess, but it looks like the blade may have been struck by a rotating machine with spaced hardened blades not unlike a simple cotton gin. Either on purpose to remove stuck something in the machine or by accident. Not the best illustration of a cotton gin attached, but you get the idea. I can see no reason for marking the blade of such a beautiful sword as part of its fabrication. http://jimsfortheloveofhistory.blogs...-whitneys.html Best, Ed

13th March 2023, 02:12 PM	#12
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 343	Guess there is nothing to do but polish it out. That is going to take some elbow grease. Upside is it may have a fine hairpin pattern.

17th March 2023, 06:33 PM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Here you can see how I did it. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=grinding