Bichoq? Or something else

DaveA · 3rd June 2015, 06:13 AM

Hello all,

Here is a knife I recently acquired, advertised as "Ottoman". I would put it into the bichoq family, but the shape of the upswept tip and a slightly concave back gives me pause.

Any thoughts?

Best Regards,

Dave A

Kubur · 3rd June 2015, 10:23 AM

Hi Dave
Again a strange stuff, the forte looks like these Saharian daggers.
The blade looks like an Ottoman bishaq. And the hilt is a mix of North African and Balkans. It's the reason why I will say Algerian or Tunisan bishaq. You didn't mention the size...
Best,
Kubur

Kubur · 3rd June 2015, 10:37 AM

and same decoration on the tabuka...

DaveA · 4th June 2015, 06:06 AM

Thank you Kabur! I love a mystery.

Regarding size, this knife is 10 ¼ inch overall, the blade 6 ½ inches. The width is precisely 1 inch at the forte and ¼ inch thick, tapering distally to the tip.

I will post some better photos soon after I clean it up a bit.

Best Regards,

Dave A.

DaveA · 4th June 2015, 06:50 AM

I cleaned it up a bit. Here are some close up photos showing more detail.

Kubur · 4th June 2015, 10:19 AM

it's a nice piece!
My feeling is that the blade was made in the Balkans or in the Golden Horn then the handle and forte were added in Tunisia.
It happened frequently with swords and pistols.
But maybe I'm completely wrong and it's a pure North African knife.
I hope you will have more comments from the forumnites.
Best,
Kubur

Iain · 4th June 2015, 10:53 AM

I would agree that the bolster plate with the four petal motif (a common Berber element found deep into the Sahel) is probably later than the blade. Certainly looks like the decorative elements belong in the North African sphere.

A lovely piece, I really like the blade style.

ariel · 5th June 2015, 06:03 PM

It is Uzbeki Pichok ( P'chak). There were multiple varieties of these knives, from different localities and with different local sub-names indicatiing different purposes. The ones with the upturned point ( forgot its local moniker:-)) were allegedly unsuitable for stabbing and were therefore used ( or classified) as utility knives.
It is rare to find an old one like that. The market is awash in modern productions, partly from Uzbekistan, partly from Ujghur area of China. But this one is a keeper.

Good eye and good buy!

DaveA · 6th June 2015, 04:33 AM

Thanks Ariel.

I know the Soviets confiscated many of these knives in usbekistan in an effort to stamp out local culture, and as a result the old ones are quite scarce. I have two other pichoq, one from Tashkent and one from Chust, good steel, but both more modern in style and unique in their own way. So my eye was tuned! Nevertheless, I have not seen this shape before and so I am glad for the feedback.

I'm fascinated by how this style is found in very similar form and name from N. Africa to the Balkans (bıçak) to Uzbekistan (pichoq) to India ( pichangatti).

Dave A

ariel · 6th June 2015, 01:02 PM

Bichaq and pichok , - simple: Uzbeks are Turks. Same mother language, with some phonetic and pronunciation variations. Turkish Kilij is Klych in Uzbekistan.

But I do not know whether pichangatti is linguistically or ethnically related.

Sancar · 6th June 2015, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Bichaq and pichok , - simple: Uzbeks are Turks. Same mother language, with some phonetic and pronunciation variations. Turkish Kilij is Klych in Uzbekistan.

But I do not know whether pichangatti is linguistically or ethnically related.

Exactly; and since Baburid Mughals were also ethnic Turks, it is propable that pichangetti also have some Turkic origin in its etimology.

ariel · 6th June 2015, 09:19 PM

My only problem with it is that pichangattis were from Coorg and often were carried in ensemble with Ayda Kattis. Both were characteristic of Mappila ( Mopla ), who were not of Turkish, but rather Arab ( Oman? Yemen?) origin.

The pichangatti/pichok/bichaq connection is a very tempting one, but may be a bit more complex than a simple similarity of sounds.

Sancar · 7th June 2015, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

My only problem with it is that pichangattis were from Coorg and often were carried in ensemble with Ayda Kattis. Both were characteristic of Mappila ( Mopla ), who were not of Turkish, but rather Arab ( Oman? Yemen?) origin.

The pichangatti/pichok/bichaq connection is a very tempting one, but may be a bit more complex than a simple similarity of sounds.

Bıçak means "knife" in Turkish language, so it doesn't have to be a certain blade form connection. In the case of "pichangatti", it might only be the word that travelled. There are many such terms in Indian languages that migrated from Turkish and Persian languages.

In the case of Özbek "pichok", there is no confusion. It is the exact same word, just different pronounciation.

ariel · 8th June 2015, 12:28 AM

Fully agree with the latter.
As to the former.. Would love to believe that 's the case, but still have an uneasy feeling of uncertainty.

Andreas · 8th June 2015, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Fully agree with the latter.
As to the former.. Would love to believe that 's the case, but still have an uneasy feeling of uncertainty.

Pichangatti apparently means "hand knife" (Egerton). As the Tamil Word for knife is katti, the word pichangatti doesn't seem related to bıçak.
Andreas

ariel · 8th June 2015, 01:44 PM

Phonetic similarity can play dirty games .
I know a fellow who has a theory that Hebrew was the mother-tongue of Eastern European Slavs.
He thinks that Russian city Orel is in reality Or -el, God's light; another Russian city, Kostroma, is Hebrew Kos Truma: Chalice of Charity.
And the crowning argument: the capital of Poland, Warszawa is in reality a mispronounced Beer Sheva, the capital of Negev region in Israel.

And there is no way shaking his private opinion:-)

Devadatta · 5th July 2015, 07:20 PM

As for me, it's not Uzbek and definetly not African. I see here typical Uyghur knife from Yangissar city

DaveA · 5th July 2015, 09:06 PM

Hello,

I'm very interested in why you are sure about this attribution. I know nothing of the Uyghur and will greatly appreciate any insight you can provide regarding the Uyghur and knives such as this one. Thank you.

B/r,

Dave A.

Ian · 5th July 2015, 11:10 PM

Devadatta:

Is not Yangissar City in Uzbekistan? Are you suggesting that the knife comes from Uzbekistan, but is tied ethnically to the Uyghurs? That is a very interesting and precise attribution.

Ian.

Sancar · 7th July 2015, 12:28 AM

I have both contemporarily made Uygur and Özbek knives (bıçak) in my collection. Those knives are basically exactly the same, just like the Özbek and Uygur tribes of Karluk subbbranch of Turkic people those "bıçak"s come from. Basically a tomayto-tomahto situation IMHO

kronckew · 7th July 2015, 09:16 AM

google 'uighur knives' (or 'uyghur knives') & select 'images', brings up a multitude of the knives they are famous for making right up to the present. many of them look like yours to greater or lesser extents. nice knife.

BANDOOK · 7th July 2015, 11:38 AM

Traditional Uzbek utility knife. Uzbek pchak knives are hand made by artisans and sold at bazaars in Uzbekistan (Central Asia). Blade is made of carbon SHH15 steel with “Tamga” Islamic marks (stars and half-moon). Roe deer antler handle
Traditional Uyghur utility knife. Uyghur pchak knives are hand made by artisans and sold at bazaars in different countries of Central Asia where Uyghur people live (Xinjiang, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan). Curved blade (kayik) is made of carbon SHH15 steel. Handle is made of brass with plastic middle part. Leather sheath.
CHEERS RAJESH

3rd June 2015, 06:13 AM	#1
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Bichoq? Or something else Hello all, Here is a knife I recently acquired, advertised as "Ottoman". I would put it into the bichoq family, but the shape of the upswept tip and a slightly concave back gives me pause. Any thoughts? Best Regards, Dave A Attached Images

3rd June 2015, 10:37 AM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	and same decoration on the tabuka... Attached Images

4th June 2015, 06:06 AM	#4
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Fascinating comparison Thank you Kabur! I love a mystery. Regarding size, this knife is 10 ¼ inch overall, the blade 6 ½ inches. The width is precisely 1 inch at the forte and ¼ inch thick, tapering distally to the tip. I will post some better photos soon after I clean it up a bit. Best Regards, Dave A.

4th June 2015, 06:50 AM	#5
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	More pictures - What is it? I cleaned it up a bit. Here are some close up photos showing more detail. Attached Images

6th June 2015, 04:33 AM	#9
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Thanks Ariel. I know the Soviets confiscated many of these knives in usbekistan in an effort to stamp out local culture, and as a result the old ones are quite scarce. I have two other pichoq, one from Tashkent and one from Chust, good steel, but both more modern in style and unique in their own way. So my eye was tuned! Nevertheless, I have not seen this shape before and so I am glad for the feedback. I'm fascinated by how this style is found in very similar form and name from N. Africa to the Balkans (bıçak) to Uzbekistan (pichoq) to India ( pichangatti). Dave A Last edited by DaveA; 6th June 2015 at 05:15 AM.

3rd June 2015, 10:23 AM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Dave Again a strange stuff, the forte looks like these Saharian daggers. The blade looks like an Ottoman bishaq. And the hilt is a mix of North African and Balkans. It's the reason why I will say Algerian or Tunisan bishaq. You didn't mention the size... Best, Kubur

4th June 2015, 10:19 AM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	it's a nice piece! My feeling is that the blade was made in the Balkans or in the Golden Horn then the handle and forte were added in Tunisia. It happened frequently with swords and pistols. But maybe I'm completely wrong and it's a pure North African knife. I hope you will have more comments from the forumnites. Best, Kubur

4th June 2015, 10:53 AM	#7
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	I would agree that the bolster plate with the four petal motif (a common Berber element found deep into the Sahel) is probably later than the blade. Certainly looks like the decorative elements belong in the North African sphere. A lovely piece, I really like the blade style.

5th June 2015, 06:03 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is Uzbeki Pichok ( P'chak). There were multiple varieties of these knives, from different localities and with different local sub-names indicatiing different purposes. The ones with the upturned point ( forgot its local moniker:-)) were allegedly unsuitable for stabbing and were therefore used ( or classified) as utility knives. It is rare to find an old one like that. The market is awash in modern productions, partly from Uzbekistan, partly from Ujghur area of China. But this one is a keeper. Good eye and good buy!

6th June 2015, 01:02 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Bichaq and pichok , - simple: Uzbeks are Turks. Same mother language, with some phonetic and pronunciation variations. Turkish Kilij is Klych in Uzbekistan. But I do not know whether pichangatti is linguistically or ethnically related.

6th June 2015, 09:19 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My only problem with it is that pichangattis were from Coorg and often were carried in ensemble with Ayda Kattis. Both were characteristic of Mappila ( Mopla ), who were not of Turkish, but rather Arab ( Oman? Yemen?) origin. The pichangatti/pichok/bichaq connection is a very tempting one, but may be a bit more complex than a simple similarity of sounds.

8th June 2015, 12:28 AM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Fully agree with the latter. As to the former.. Would love to believe that 's the case, but still have an uneasy feeling of uncertainty.

8th June 2015, 01:44 PM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Phonetic similarity can play dirty games . I know a fellow who has a theory that Hebrew was the mother-tongue of Eastern European Slavs. He thinks that Russian city Orel is in reality Or -el, God's light; another Russian city, Kostroma, is Hebrew Kos Truma: Chalice of Charity. And the crowning argument: the capital of Poland, Warszawa is in reality a mispronounced Beer Sheva, the capital of Negev region in Israel. And there is no way shaking his private opinion:-)

5th July 2015, 07:20 PM	#17
Devadatta Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 118	As for me, it's not Uzbek and definetly not African. I see here typical Uyghur knife from Yangissar city

5th July 2015, 09:06 PM	#18
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Uyghur? Hello, I'm very interested in why you are sure about this attribution. I know nothing of the Uyghur and will greatly appreciate any insight you can provide regarding the Uyghur and knives such as this one. Thank you. B/r, Dave A.

5th July 2015, 11:10 PM	#19
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Devadatta: Is not Yangissar City in Uzbekistan? Are you suggesting that the knife comes from Uzbekistan, but is tied ethnically to the Uyghurs? That is a very interesting and precise attribution. Ian.

7th July 2015, 12:28 AM	#20
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	I have both contemporarily made Uygur and Özbek knives (bıçak) in my collection. Those knives are basically exactly the same, just like the Özbek and Uygur tribes of Karluk subbbranch of Turkic people those "bıçak"s come from. Basically a tomayto-tomahto situation IMHO

7th July 2015, 09:16 AM	#21
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,182	google 'uighur knives' (or 'uyghur knives') & select 'images', brings up a multitude of the knives they are famous for making right up to the present. many of them look like yours to greater or lesser extents. nice knife.

7th July 2015, 11:38 AM	#22
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	FEW MODERN VERSIONS OF THESE KNIFES Traditional Uzbek utility knife. Uzbek pchak knives are hand made by artisans and sold at bazaars in Uzbekistan (Central Asia). Blade is made of carbon SHH15 steel with “Tamga” Islamic marks (stars and half-moon). Roe deer antler handle Traditional Uyghur utility knife. Uyghur pchak knives are hand made by artisans and sold at bazaars in different countries of Central Asia where Uyghur people live (Xinjiang, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan). Curved blade (kayik) is made of carbon SHH15 steel. Handle is made of brass with plastic middle part. Leather sheath. CHEERS RAJESH Attached Images