Remains of a sabre?

blue lander · 16th January 2014, 07:11 PM

The seller thought it was an "african machete", but after posting a pic over on the ethnographic side the consensus is that may be a cut down European sabre with all the metal and leather taken off the hilt.

Both sides of the blade are mostly covered with a floral pattern. One side has some writing at the bottom, but it's too corroded to make out most of it. The first three letters on the first line appear to be LEC, the last two look like TE. I can't read the bottom line at all. Other than the floral pattern, there's two lions holding a shield or something with a chevron on it. I'll try to take better pictures, but the patina is very shiny so you get a lot of reflection. The edges are banged up pretty good on both sides. No fuller or anything like that.

The hilt is cracked on both sides. It looks to me like it cracked from somebody hitting something too hard with it. Sort of like what happens when you try to use a sword as a machete. The patina is weird, it's very shiny and thick.

Any idea what this might have been once? It almost looks decorative piece except that it's so beaten up.

blue lander · 17th January 2014, 03:43 AM

Wow... I gave it a vigorous cleaning with a tissue paper and some windex, and a lot more detail came out. there's actually quite a lot of detail etched into the vines and flowers and whatnot. On the opposite side of the lions and chevron there's some other figure but it's badly corroded. I think I see a boat anchor though. I still can't make out the writing at the bottom.

Edit: on second thought it looks more like an axe head than an anchor.

fernando · 17th January 2014, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue lander

Wow... I gave it a vigorous cleaning with a tissue paper and some windex, and a lot more detail came out ...

Impressive result

blue lander · 17th January 2014, 05:08 PM

Thanks! Does anybody else have any cleaning suggestions? Besides revealing more detail, I'd like to lighten the patina up a bit. Would toothpaste be advisable? I'm worried about using anything abrasive since there is still some fine detail left on some of the leaves and flowers I wouldn't want to scrub off.

I still have no idea what the decoration with the axe head is. About 2 inches higher than it is the tip of a spear with what looks like a flag draping down from it. I've made out a little more of the writing at the bottom. It seems to say :

LEC.....ETTE
...PARIS

The dots representing letters I can't make out. I bought it from a seller in France, so no surprise on the Paris part.

blue lander · 17th January 2014, 05:31 PM

Also did some cleaning on the coat of arms. There are three crosses pattee on the chevron. There may be something above and/or below the chevron, or it might just be corrosion. Hopefully windex will tell the difference. Details, like hairs on the lion, are turning yellow. Above the crest is a knight's helmet looking straight forward with a lion on top of it. It also appears to be wearing a crown but I can't make out any details of the crown whether it's open or closed or a coronet or whatnot. I've read a forward facing helmet with bar guards was reserved for kings only, but I've also read this is a 19th/20th century misconception. It seems like many "rules" of heraldry changed from century to century and location to location, and many rules were just made up by 19th century historians.

Is this sword interesting enough to pursue cleaning and identifying the markings? I'm worried it's just some tacky Victorian era fantasy piece and the decorations on it mean nothing.

Richard G · 18th January 2014, 04:34 PM

The floral pattern seems to consist of thistles; a scottish connection?
Regards
Richard

blue lander · 19th January 2014, 03:45 AM

I hadn't considered that, but it seems like a good starting point. I'll start looking at scottish coats of arms to see if I can find a match.

So far the only arms I can find with 3 crosses formee on a chevron is of a "Pecke" family in Brampton England.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 19th January 2014, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue lander

I hadn't considered that, but it seems like a good starting point. I'll start looking at scottish coats of arms to see if I can find a match.

So far the only arms I can find with 3 crosses formee on a chevron is of a "Pecke" family in Brampton England.

Salaams blue lander .. The crest appears to show a chevron on its shield supported by two lions rampant regardant (An animal regardant faces dexter with its head turned toward sinister, as if looking over its shoulder.) The note by Richard on thistles is interesting and well placed, thus, Scottish heraldry may yield the clue.

From http://www7b.biglobe.ne.jp/~bprince/.../fdguide11.htm Quote"The Thistle ranks next to the rose in British heraldic importance. Like the rose, the reason of its assumption as a national badge remains largely a matter of mystery, though it is of nothing like so ancient an origin. Of course one knows the time-honoured and wholly impossible legend that its adoption as a national symbol dates from the battle of Largs, when one of the Danish invaders gave away an attempted surprise by his cry of agony caused by stepping barefooted upon a thistle.

The fact, however, remains that its earliest appearance is on the silver coinage of 1474, in the reign of James III., but during that reign there can be no doubt that it was accepted either as a national badge or else as the personal badge of the sovereign. The period in question was that in which badges were so largely used, and it is not unlikely that, desiring to vie with his brother of England, and fired by the example of the broom badge and the rose badge, the Scottish king, remembering the ancient legend, chose the thistle as his own badge. In 1540, when the thistle had become recognized as one of the national emblems of the kingdom, the foundation of the Order of the Thistle stereotyped the fact for all future time. The conventional heraldic representation of the thistle is as it appears upon the star of that Order, that is, the flowered head upon a short stalk with a leaf on either side. Though sometimes represented of gold, it is nearly always proper. It has frequently been granted as an augmentation, though in such a meaning it will usually be found crowned. The coat of augmentation carried in the first quarter of his arms by Lord Torphichen is: "Argent, a thistle vert, flowered gules (really a thistle proper), on a chief azure an imperial crown or." "Sable, a thistle (possibly really a teasel) or, between three pheons argent" is the coat of Teesdale, and "Gules, three thistles or" is attributed in Papworth to Hawkey. A curious use of the thistle occurs in the arms of the National Bank of Scotland(granted 1826), which are: "Or, the image of St. Andrew with vesture vert, and surcoat purpure, bearing before him the cross of his martyrdom argent, all resting on a base of the second, in the dexter flank a garb gules, in the sinister a ship in full sail sable, the shield surrounded with two thistles proper disposed in orle." Unquote

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

blue lander · 21st January 2014, 04:49 PM

Thank you as always for the enlightening context Ibrahiim. I'm continuing to look through coat of arms to find a match, but so far no luck other than the "Pecke" one. I've attached a photo of those arms. While the coat itself is similar, the supporters and helmet and crown are all different. I'm inclined to think it's just coincidence. I think if I clean the blade up more I can see more details which may shed more light on matters, but I'm hesitant to remove all the remaining patina for aesthetic reasons.

Also confusing me is that the helmet above the coat of arms. It's pointing straight forward and it has a crown on it. The crest above it is a demi-lion above it carrying a scepter of some sort. I read only kings could use that kind of helmet and crown on their coats. But I've gone through all the English, French and Scottish coats of arms I can find and none of them look remotely similar.

On the other hand I've read that these rules about who could use what kind of helmet or crown were not strictly enforced and some rules were just made up by later historians.

One more question - it looks like the crest and the decoration on the other side were plated in some yellowish metal, I assume copper or bronze. You can see it fairly well in the pictures I posted. Was this a common technique, or does it narrow down the age of the sword? The thistles/vines don't appear to have the same embellishment.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd January 2014, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue lander

Thank you as always for the enlightening context Ibrahiim. I'm continuing to look through coat of arms to find a match, but so far no luck other than the "Pecke" one. I've attached a photo of those arms. While the coat itself is similar, the supporters and helmet and crown are all different. I'm inclined to think it's just coincidence. I think if I clean the blade up more I can see more details which may shed more light on matters, but I'm hesitant to remove all the remaining patina for aesthetic reasons.

Also confusing me is that the helmet above the coat of arms. It's pointing straight forward and it has a crown on it. The crest above it is a demi-lion above it carrying a scepter of some sort. I read only kings could use that kind of helmet and crown on their coats. But I've gone through all the English, French and Scottish coats of arms I can find and none of them look remotely similar.

On the other hand I've read that these rules about who could use what kind of helmet or crown were not strictly enforced and some rules were just made up by later historians.

One more question - it looks like the crest and the decoration on the other side were plated in some yellowish metal, I assume copper or bronze. You can see it fairly well in the pictures I posted. Was this a common technique, or does it narrow down the age of the sword? The thistles/vines don't appear to have the same embellishment.

Salaams You are doing a very good clean up job getting rid of the encrusted and active rust...I suggest you continue whatever process it is that you are using.. Simply repeat the action and see how that goes. A good idea is to build a set of cleaning measures for example the hot soapy water immediate action ... then such remedies as coke cola, tomato paste, vinegar, pineapple juice etc and put them into order weakest first. Always start with the weakest solution...until you get good at using one of the more strong ones...and dont use hot solutions til you are very good at it... if ever.

Please lets have a look at the improved item... its a great thread... well done. I have checked about every Scottish heraldic structure under the sun... but it can be any related thing... The Scotish/Canadian Ladies Knitting Circle for example (its not by the way) but you get my drift...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.[B]

blue lander · 22nd January 2014, 05:37 PM

Thank you... I've been using coca cola the last few days and it's slowly but surely removing oxidization. I've also used tooth paste and WD-40. I think the yellow inlays are actually gold, as the coke doesn't seem to tarnish it. I think the steel has oxidized and rusted over the gold inlay, but it's still in there underneath all the gunk. I've decided to not worry about removing too much patina if that's what I have to do to see the details underneath.

I used to collect cheap Roman coins where you'd get 30 or 40 of them but they were fresh out of ground and uncleaned, and one thing you learn very quickly is to clean as sloooowly and gently as possible. You can easily destroy the object or remove details if you're too aggressive. Once something's removed you can't put it back.

16th January 2014, 07:11 PM	#1
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Remains of a sabre? The seller thought it was an "african machete", but after posting a pic over on the ethnographic side the consensus is that may be a cut down European sabre with all the metal and leather taken off the hilt. Both sides of the blade are mostly covered with a floral pattern. One side has some writing at the bottom, but it's too corroded to make out most of it. The first three letters on the first line appear to be LEC, the last two look like TE. I can't read the bottom line at all. Other than the floral pattern, there's two lions holding a shield or something with a chevron on it. I'll try to take better pictures, but the patina is very shiny so you get a lot of reflection. The edges are banged up pretty good on both sides. No fuller or anything like that. The hilt is cracked on both sides. It looks to me like it cracked from somebody hitting something too hard with it. Sort of like what happens when you try to use a sword as a machete. The patina is weird, it's very shiny and thick. Any idea what this might have been once? It almost looks decorative piece except that it's so beaten up. Attached Images Last edited by blue lander; 16th January 2014 at 09:40 PM.

17th January 2014, 03:43 AM	#2
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Wow... I gave it a vigorous cleaning with a tissue paper and some windex, and a lot more detail came out. there's actually quite a lot of detail etched into the vines and flowers and whatnot. On the opposite side of the lions and chevron there's some other figure but it's badly corroded. I think I see a boat anchor though. I still can't make out the writing at the bottom. Edit: on second thought it looks more like an axe head than an anchor. Attached Images Last edited by blue lander; 17th January 2014 at 04:15 AM.

17th January 2014, 05:08 PM	#4
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Thanks! Does anybody else have any cleaning suggestions? Besides revealing more detail, I'd like to lighten the patina up a bit. Would toothpaste be advisable? I'm worried about using anything abrasive since there is still some fine detail left on some of the leaves and flowers I wouldn't want to scrub off. I still have no idea what the decoration with the axe head is. About 2 inches higher than it is the tip of a spear with what looks like a flag draping down from it. I've made out a little more of the writing at the bottom. It seems to say : LEC.....ETTE ...PARIS The dots representing letters I can't make out. I bought it from a seller in France, so no surprise on the Paris part. Attached Images

17th January 2014, 05:31 PM	#5
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Also did some cleaning on the coat of arms. There are three crosses pattee on the chevron. There may be something above and/or below the chevron, or it might just be corrosion. Hopefully windex will tell the difference. Details, like hairs on the lion, are turning yellow. Above the crest is a knight's helmet looking straight forward with a lion on top of it. It also appears to be wearing a crown but I can't make out any details of the crown whether it's open or closed or a coronet or whatnot. I've read a forward facing helmet with bar guards was reserved for kings only, but I've also read this is a 19th/20th century misconception. It seems like many "rules" of heraldry changed from century to century and location to location, and many rules were just made up by 19th century historians. Is this sword interesting enough to pursue cleaning and identifying the markings? I'm worried it's just some tacky Victorian era fantasy piece and the decorations on it mean nothing. Attached Images Last edited by blue lander; 17th January 2014 at 08:25 PM.

21st January 2014, 04:49 PM	#9
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Thank you as always for the enlightening context Ibrahiim. I'm continuing to look through coat of arms to find a match, but so far no luck other than the "Pecke" one. I've attached a photo of those arms. While the coat itself is similar, the supporters and helmet and crown are all different. I'm inclined to think it's just coincidence. I think if I clean the blade up more I can see more details which may shed more light on matters, but I'm hesitant to remove all the remaining patina for aesthetic reasons. Also confusing me is that the helmet above the coat of arms. It's pointing straight forward and it has a crown on it. The crest above it is a demi-lion above it carrying a scepter of some sort. I read only kings could use that kind of helmet and crown on their coats. But I've gone through all the English, French and Scottish coats of arms I can find and none of them look remotely similar. On the other hand I've read that these rules about who could use what kind of helmet or crown were not strictly enforced and some rules were just made up by later historians. One more question - it looks like the crest and the decoration on the other side were plated in some yellowish metal, I assume copper or bronze. You can see it fairly well in the pictures I posted. Was this a common technique, or does it narrow down the age of the sword? The thistles/vines don't appear to have the same embellishment. Attached Images

18th January 2014, 04:34 PM	#6
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	The floral pattern seems to consist of thistles; a scottish connection? Regards Richard

19th January 2014, 03:45 AM	#7
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	I hadn't considered that, but it seems like a good starting point. I'll start looking at scottish coats of arms to see if I can find a match. So far the only arms I can find with 3 crosses formee on a chevron is of a "Pecke" family in Brampton England.

22nd January 2014, 05:37 PM	#11
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Thank you... I've been using coca cola the last few days and it's slowly but surely removing oxidization. I've also used tooth paste and WD-40. I think the yellow inlays are actually gold, as the coke doesn't seem to tarnish it. I think the steel has oxidized and rusted over the gold inlay, but it's still in there underneath all the gunk. I've decided to not worry about removing too much patina if that's what I have to do to see the details underneath. I used to collect cheap Roman coins where you'd get 30 or 40 of them but they were fresh out of ground and uncleaned, and one thing you learn very quickly is to clean as sloooowly and gently as possible. You can easily destroy the object or remove details if you're too aggressive. Once something's removed you can't put it back.