What Would You Do ?

Robert · 26th February 2009, 01:18 AM

Here is a bolo I recently received. I knew exactly what kind of shape it was in before I bought it because of the detailed pictures the seller provided. The horn hilt has an extreme amount of worm damage.

I really hate it when I see things like this bolo that were completely neglected and left to rot with no attempt being made to preserve them at all.

To keep from having to grind off the end of the tang to remove the grip and then carve a new one out of horn I opted to replace the damaged areas with epoxy putty. This way I could also retain what is left of the original grip and stabilize it at the same time. The pictures show what it looked like when first received and what it looks like now. At this point it is only roughed in and not yet smooth enough to be stained to match the original horn. I will post more pictures when I am finished with it. My question to all is, what would you have done if this was yours?

Robert

Sajen · 26th February 2009, 03:10 AM

Hello Robert,
I think that is the best you can do with a damaged handle like this. Well done! Think the end result will be nice.
sajen

G. McCormack · 26th February 2009, 06:21 AM

Nice job, I think since its so extensive, I might have drawn even more attention to it, using epoxy mixed with some colored pigments or metal flakes or something snazzy like that.
Nice handle shape on that one, looks really comfy.

Ferguson · 26th February 2009, 04:31 PM

You can buy epoxy colorants at Texas Knifemakers Supply www.texasknife.com .

Some folks have also used a bit of model paint in their epoxy. When I'm patching horn, I use just a little black, and the tiniest bit of red. With clear epoxy, a slightly translucent mix works fairly well.

Steve

Robert · 27th February 2009, 03:17 AM

Sajen and G. McCormack, Thank you both for your comments on what I have done so far. I think after staining the epoxy will look fine and match in with the horn pretty well. At least I hope it will !!

Steve, Thank you for the link to the supplies and for the tips on how to do the repairs. Again, thank you all for your interest.

Robert

LPCA · 3rd March 2009, 08:48 AM

Hi.

Unfortunately, old blades we find are not museum items, but genuine and interesting for their blade...with hilts a bit destroyed or more.

We are not restoration specialized craftmen. We just try to give a bit of live to the hilts....

See the attached pics.
For the nimcha (horn) and the flyssah (bone), i used a synthetic mastic that i first coloured in the mass with powder.

For the yathatan, i followed a description of repair by Adni (Oriental-Arms) see archives.
I remade the ears with hard wood (quite difficult because of the spatial volume or shape), 2 pieces of ivory on each side, metallic central strip readorned and gilded (gold leaf).
Heavy duty, my lords.

Louis-Pierre

ariel · 3rd March 2009, 01:54 PM

What do you mean by " synthetic mastic"?
Name, brand, source will be appreciated.

LPCA · 3rd March 2009, 03:07 PM

Hi, Ariel.

it's just a polyester putty (mastic) of professional quality for yatchs or cars. They need a hardener which is provided with.
Easy to find in little boxes.
Very easy to use - It dries rapidly and can be sand without problem with dry or wet paper.
We can slightly color it with the acrylic painting for board during the mixture.
Or then after drying, then brush with a wax the whole hilt.

Hope that can help you.
Louis-Pierre

Rick · 3rd March 2009, 04:58 PM

I.O.W. Bondo .

LPCA · 3rd March 2009, 05:06 PM

Sorry, Rick, my english level does not allow me to understand what is IOW Bondo.
Can you traduce in english pls?.
Thanks

Queequeg · 3rd March 2009, 05:24 PM

"IOW" is short for "in other words".

Bondo is an epoxy putty which repairmen use to fix holes or small dents in the body of an automobile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bondo_(putty)

LPCA · 3rd March 2009, 05:37 PM

Thank you , QueeQueg.

Yes, it's the same product.

Robert · 3rd March 2009, 06:19 PM

LPCA, Very nice restoration work you've done on your swords!! I tried using bondo at one time but it did not want to stick very well for me. It could have been that at that time I was still able to swing them around and the bondo was separating from the horn. That is the main reason that I started using epoxy putty. It colors well before or after being applied but because of the fast drying time I prefer to do the coloring after it has dried and been completely finished sanded. The reason this swords repairs are still like they are is I ran out of the brown permanent markers that I use in conjunction with a black marker to color the putty in with. I am going into town today to pick up more, so I should be able to post pictures tonight of the finished work. If it was not for the fact that I would have had to grind off the end of the tang

I would have just used the original grip as a pattern and made a new grip of water buffalo horn to replace the damaged one. Does anyone else have pictures of any restoration work that they have done to damaged grips or hilts that they would like to share with the rest of us? My thanks to everyone for your interest and suggestions on how to repair the damage often found on these older neglected and often mistreated items.

Robert

LPCA · 3rd March 2009, 07:31 PM

Robert, here is some pics of the Yathagan's restoration.

The main problem was the recovery of the hilt and the building of the 2 hears in a hard and dark wood.

I did 3 pairs of hears and choose among them the less more horrible.
I added 2 pieces of ivory.
IThen i used gold leaves for the metallic parts.

Louis-Pierre

Robert · 4th March 2009, 05:00 AM

Louis-Pierre, Great work on the hilt restoration!! The results for the one that I'm working on are below. Sorry about the picture quality but I had to take them inside because it's dark outside here. Could use a little more work in a couple of areas but I will probably leave it as is.

Robert

LPCA · 4th March 2009, 05:12 AM

Perfect, Robert and a nice job too.
What is to keep in mind is that is better to try to save a damaged hilt with restoration than to replace it systematically....when it's possible of course.

Louis-Pierre

Robert · 4th March 2009, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LPCA

Perfect, Robert and a nice job too.
What is to keep in mind is that is better to try to save a damaged hilt with restoration than to replace it systematically....when it's possible of course.

Louis-Pierre

Louis-Pierre[/QUOTE]

Louis-Pierre, Thank you for your kind words. Saving the damaged grip was exactly what I had in mind when I started this restoration. I wanted to save what was left of the original horn and try to stabilize it in the process. I tried to leave in some of the imperfections so it would not look brand new and it would match up better with with the blade. A new grip might look better, but to me it would look out of place once it was mounted to the old blade. Because of the bonding strength of the epoxy I also believe it could now be used as intended "if needed" without worrying about the blade coming loose from the grip. I hope that I never need to find out if I'm right about this or not.

Robert

ariel · 5th March 2009, 12:44 AM

Once again, we are getting into murky waters of what is permissible in the restoration process.
Obviously, Robert's bolo is not of real cultural importance. The goal was to make it look better and " serviceable". I have no objection to that. The yataghan is also unlikely to ever be exhibited in the Metropolitan Museum of Arts.
What drives me bananas is when people find a really unique item, and "renovate" it into a shiny but culturally meaningless object. Some are even seriously describing it as a "reuse". Well, this is permissible only if one absolutely needs a part for actual use: a swordmaker from 15th century remounting a 13th century blade to use it as functional weapon. These days, we do not really need swords as weapons and destruction of archeological objects should be viewed as criminal offense. Stabilize, preserve, protect, but never renovate!
Look at the Topkapi collection of the swords of Muhammed and Califs. Bloody Ottoman sultans ordered the swords remounted, repolished, re-inscribed etc. By now it is impossible to make even a half-decent guess about their age, provenance, original construction etc. Did the Sultans really need them as weapons? No way, they had enough newly-made ones. Cultural barbarism with the best intentions!

David · 5th March 2009, 01:10 AM

Ariel, i think we are on to apples and oranges here. I see nothing murky in the waters of this thread and find the restoration work these guys have done admirable.

ariel · 5th March 2009, 03:42 AM

Oh, no! Both of these are perfectly legit in my book. Good job(s), guys!

I was just irritated because of a post on another forum: a very old and rare knife that should have been in the museum, fell in the hands of an enthusiastic "recycler". The rusty blade was removed and discarded, a new and shiny was put in and the owner proudly presented the final product as something he would now use as a hunting? kitchen? utility? implement. Ugh...
Sorry if my remark appeared aggressive; I had no intentions to offend anyone ( except, maybe, the Sultans).

LPCA · 5th March 2009, 05:53 AM

Yes you are right, Ariel, a distinction is to be made between the restorations of this thread which concern common weapons and those of the prestigious weapons. At our level, They are weapons that we have the pleasure to discover and that we restore without damage in the world heritage of the humanity.

As regards the swords of the prophet, Ali and the following ones, on 9 swords, there remains 3 which were all distorted by their state of origin. It is really pity in our current vision of things. This vision evolved a lot because these Arabic swords are for us really mythical.

I suppose that the sultans (not Arabic and freshly Moslem) made it an instrument of their power, each appropriating them by addition of writings and decorations to be more a caliph than the caliph.

Louis-Pierre

26th February 2009, 01:18 AM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	What Would You Do ? Here is a bolo I recently received. I knew exactly what kind of shape it was in before I bought it because of the detailed pictures the seller provided. The horn hilt has an extreme amount of worm damage. I really hate it when I see things like this bolo that were completely neglected and left to rot with no attempt being made to preserve them at all. To keep from having to grind off the end of the tang to remove the grip and then carve a new one out of horn I opted to replace the damaged areas with epoxy putty. This way I could also retain what is left of the original grip and stabilize it at the same time. The pictures show what it looked like when first received and what it looks like now. At this point it is only roughed in and not yet smooth enough to be stained to match the original horn. I will post more pictures when I am finished with it. My question to all is, what would you have done if this was yours? Robert Attached Images

3rd March 2009, 08:48 AM	#6
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Hi. Unfortunately, old blades we find are not museum items, but genuine and interesting for their blade...with hilts a bit destroyed or more. We are not restoration specialized craftmen. We just try to give a bit of live to the hilts.... See the attached pics. For the nimcha (horn) and the flyssah (bone), i used a synthetic mastic that i first coloured in the mass with powder. For the yathatan, i followed a description of repair by Adni (Oriental-Arms) see archives. I remade the ears with hard wood (quite difficult because of the spatial volume or shape), 2 pieces of ivory on each side, metallic central strip readorned and gilded (gold leaf). Heavy duty, my lords. Louis-Pierre Attached Images

3rd March 2009, 03:07 PM	#8
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Hi, Ariel. it's just a polyester putty (mastic) of professional quality for yatchs or cars. They need a hardener which is provided with. Easy to find in little boxes. Very easy to use - It dries rapidly and can be sand without problem with dry or wet paper. We can slightly color it with the acrylic painting for board during the mixture. Or then after drying, then brush with a wax the whole hilt. Hope that can help you. Louis-Pierre Attached Images

3rd March 2009, 07:31 PM	#14
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Robert, here is some pics of the Yathagan's restoration. The main problem was the recovery of the hilt and the building of the 2 hears in a hard and dark wood. I did 3 pairs of hears and choose among them the less more horrible. I added 2 pieces of ivory. IThen i used gold leaves for the metallic parts. Louis-Pierre Attached Images

4th March 2009, 05:00 AM	#15
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Louis-Pierre, Great work on the hilt restoration!! The results for the one that I'm working on are below. Sorry about the picture quality but I had to take them inside because it's dark outside here. Could use a little more work in a couple of areas but I will probably leave it as is. Robert Attached Images

26th February 2009, 03:10 AM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,788	Hello Robert, I think that is the best you can do with a damaged handle like this. Well done! Think the end result will be nice. sajen

26th February 2009, 06:21 AM	#3
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	Nice job, I think since its so extensive, I might have drawn even more attention to it, using epoxy mixed with some colored pigments or metal flakes or something snazzy like that. Nice handle shape on that one, looks really comfy.

26th February 2009, 04:31 PM	#4
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	You can buy epoxy colorants at Texas Knifemakers Supply www.texasknife.com . Some folks have also used a bit of model paint in their epoxy. When I'm patching horn, I use just a little black, and the tiniest bit of red. With clear epoxy, a slightly translucent mix works fairly well. Steve

27th February 2009, 03:17 AM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Sajen and G. McCormack, Thank you both for your comments on what I have done so far. I think after staining the epoxy will look fine and match in with the horn pretty well. At least I hope it will !! Steve, Thank you for the link to the supplies and for the tips on how to do the repairs. Again, thank you all for your interest. Robert

3rd March 2009, 01:54 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What do you mean by " synthetic mastic"? Name, brand, source will be appreciated.

3rd March 2009, 04:58 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I.O.W. Bondo .

3rd March 2009, 05:06 PM	#10
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Sorry, Rick, my english level does not allow me to understand what is IOW Bondo. Can you traduce in english pls?. Thanks

3rd March 2009, 05:24 PM	#11
Queequeg Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Detroit (New Mayapan) Posts: 96	"IOW" is short for "in other words". Bondo is an epoxy putty which repairmen use to fix holes or small dents in the body of an automobile. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bondo_(putty)

3rd March 2009, 05:37 PM	#12
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Thank you , QueeQueg. Yes, it's the same product.

3rd March 2009, 06:19 PM	#13
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	LPCA, Very nice restoration work you've done on your swords!! I tried using bondo at one time but it did not want to stick very well for me. It could have been that at that time I was still able to swing them around and the bondo was separating from the horn. That is the main reason that I started using epoxy putty. It colors well before or after being applied but because of the fast drying time I prefer to do the coloring after it has dried and been completely finished sanded. The reason this swords repairs are still like they are is I ran out of the brown permanent markers that I use in conjunction with a black marker to color the putty in with. I am going into town today to pick up more, so I should be able to post pictures tonight of the finished work. If it was not for the fact that I would have had to grind off the end of the tang I would have just used the original grip as a pattern and made a new grip of water buffalo horn to replace the damaged one. Does anyone else have pictures of any restoration work that they have done to damaged grips or hilts that they would like to share with the rest of us? My thanks to everyone for your interest and suggestions on how to repair the damage often found on these older neglected and often mistreated items. Robert

4th March 2009, 05:12 AM	#16
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Perfect, Robert and a nice job too. What is to keep in mind is that is better to try to save a damaged hilt with restoration than to replace it systematically....when it's possible of course. Louis-Pierre

5th March 2009, 12:44 AM	#18
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Once again, we are getting into murky waters of what is permissible in the restoration process. Obviously, Robert's bolo is not of real cultural importance. The goal was to make it look better and " serviceable". I have no objection to that. The yataghan is also unlikely to ever be exhibited in the Metropolitan Museum of Arts. What drives me bananas is when people find a really unique item, and "renovate" it into a shiny but culturally meaningless object. Some are even seriously describing it as a "reuse". Well, this is permissible only if one absolutely needs a part for actual use: a swordmaker from 15th century remounting a 13th century blade to use it as functional weapon. These days, we do not really need swords as weapons and destruction of archeological objects should be viewed as criminal offense. Stabilize, preserve, protect, but never renovate! Look at the Topkapi collection of the swords of Muhammed and Califs. Bloody Ottoman sultans ordered the swords remounted, repolished, re-inscribed etc. By now it is impossible to make even a half-decent guess about their age, provenance, original construction etc. Did the Sultans really need them as weapons? No way, they had enough newly-made ones. Cultural barbarism with the best intentions!

5th March 2009, 01:10 AM	#19
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Ariel, i think we are on to apples and oranges here. I see nothing murky in the waters of this thread and find the restoration work these guys have done admirable.

5th March 2009, 03:42 AM	#20
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Oh, no! Both of these are perfectly legit in my book. Good job(s), guys! I was just irritated because of a post on another forum: a very old and rare knife that should have been in the museum, fell in the hands of an enthusiastic "recycler". The rusty blade was removed and discarded, a new and shiny was put in and the owner proudly presented the final product as something he would now use as a hunting? kitchen? utility? implement. Ugh... Sorry if my remark appeared aggressive; I had no intentions to offend anyone ( except, maybe, the Sultans).

5th March 2009, 05:53 AM	#21
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Yes you are right, Ariel, a distinction is to be made between the restorations of this thread which concern common weapons and those of the prestigious weapons. At our level, They are weapons that we have the pleasure to discover and that we restore without damage in the world heritage of the humanity. As regards the swords of the prophet, Ali and the following ones, on 9 swords, there remains 3 which were all distorted by their state of origin. It is really pity in our current vision of things. This vision evolved a lot because these Arabic swords are for us really mythical. I suppose that the sultans (not Arabic and freshly Moslem) made it an instrument of their power, each appropriating them by addition of writings and decorations to be more a caliph than the caliph. Louis-Pierre