Silver inlayed 19thC Mexican Spur with Stars/Stripes?

[Atlantia]

Hi Y'all
Well, I know its a little OT, but period cowboy equipment does touch upon several areas of our hobby.....
And for my tenuous weapon link, doesn't James Stewart kill the badguy with one in 'The Naked Spur'?

So anyway, here is a sadly single Mexican made (I think) antique Spur with white metal inlay.
I'm hoping someone will have some info on the designs used as they don't seem 'usual' to me (not that I've seen much of this sort of stuff).
The 'stars and bars' are what are puzzling me. Is it possible that this was made for a US customer?
It's stamped on the inside with 'I.S.V.M'
Mexican cowboys must have looked fantastically stylish!

[Atlantia]

No comments? Not even from our US or Mexican members?

[A. G. Maisey]

If I had a horse, this is what I'd want to wear into town.

Trouble is that here in the Land of Oz, the Tree Huggers and Kangaroo Kuddlers have taken over , and I'd probably get 25 to life if I touched a horse with it.

But beautiful, just the same.

[laEspadaAncha]

My $.02 - which is trading at just under a penny in today's currency markets - is that they are of South American origin, given the monster rowels and rich decorative work... maybe Argentine, or Chilean?

There was a somewhat similar pair posted here a couple years ago:

Click

[Atlantia]

Hi laEspadaAncha

Thanks, I think Tims are really nice! And still a pair!!

[laEspadaAncha]

Sure thing...

Living here in the Southwest, it's not that unusual to encounter spurs at auctions, estate sales, etc... there are particular stylistic cues associated with "Texas spurs," "California spurs," and "Mexican spurs." Similarly, I think the giant 437-spoked rowels almost always point towards a South American origin. Nice example, BTW... and even single spurs display quite nicely when placed with knives or swords from their respective place of origin.

Got Gaucho?

[Jim McDougall]

Now this is esoterica Gene!!! and actually, I think spurs are very much part of the study of arms and armor, as from medieval times they were actually a sign of rank. As for tenuous, not at all with the great tie in with this classic movie!! probably more for the actors than the actual content.
The spur didnt really kill the guy with a spur (so we wont need to worry about activists seeking to outlaw spurs now but actually threw it at him, presenting the distraction needed for the deadly gunshot.

This example looks to me markedly Mexican, though I cannot claim any knowledge or even awareness toward this topic. As noted by Chris, the presence of spurs is well seated in American cowboy tradition, which has of course borne its origins in the colorful history of New Spain. This heritage in turn carries the traditions from medieval times and chivalry brought from the Iberian Peninsula.

I think that the distinct appearance and elaborate decoration may be more of a Spanish influence, more than regional application. While the huge rowel signifies the 'espeula grande' type , it seems more likely Spanish Southwest or Mexico, though certainly the gaucho examples are well noted.

The use of stars in linear motif would not signify American association in my opinion though, as these stars are known to be used in many types of insignia, flags and regalia. As spurs were often custom made, there seem to be any number of possibilities.

It is very true that the styles and flamboyance of Mexico in the material culture of its frontier and Spanish Colonial history is one of the very things that make the study of these arms and accoutrements so exciting in my opinion. The Mexican vaquero was stylish indeed, as were the Mexican cowboys who carried the traditions forward.

Returning to the movie images noted by Gene, who can forget the rugged and elaborately distinct character and flamboyantly festooned bandidos and revolutionaries in western movies with huge sombreros, bandoleers, flared pants and clanking rowel spurs. While some might see them as cartooned cliche's, I see beyond that and see the spirited and rugged caballeros who formed the character of not only Mexico, but very much America itself.

It would be great to learn more on spurs and thier history, and think it is an excellent topic to pursue further! Outstanding Gene, thank you!!

Alan, good one there from OZ, love the kangaroo kuddlers!!!

Chris, excellent note on the frequency of seeing spurs around, and I can formly attest to that as the 'bookmobile' courses through the Southwest constantly.

All the best,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Hi Gene,

It looks like a very fine spurs from Amozoc, in the State of Puebla, Mexico. Usually, the inlaids are made with silver. Search on the internet for "espuelas de Amozoc" (spurs from Amozoc). You will get additional info.
Regards

Gonzalo

PD: There are not many countries in America with a "cowboy" tradition. Only those who were herders in an important measure, like Argentina, Uruguay and Mexico. The cowboy tradition from the USA originated in Mexico, mainly on those states taken from our country, like Texas, Colorado and Nuevo Mexico.

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

PD: There are not many countries in America with a "cowboy" tradition. Only those who were herders in an important measure, like Argentina, Uruguay and Mexico. The cowboy tradition from the USA originated in Mexico, mainly on those states taken from our country, like Texas, Colorado and Nuevo Mexico.

Hmmm... Not sure how that bit of subjective historical interpretation found its way onto a forum intended for the discussion of ethnographic weapons, but as an 8th-generation Californio I can at least be grateful you left the Bear Flag Republic off your list. I might also add, the Spanish Californios shared in the creation of the vaquero tradition in their herding of the 400,000 cattle that were maintained by the Missions and privately-held rancheros.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Now this is esoterica Gene!!! and actually, I think spurs are very much part of the study of arms and armor, as from medieval times they were actually a sign of rank. As for tenuous, not at all with the great tie in with this classic movie!! probably more for the actors than the actual content.
The spur didnt really kill the guy with a spur (so we wont need to worry about activists seeking to outlaw spurs now but actually threw it at him, presenting the distraction needed for the deadly gunshot.

This example looks to me markedly Mexican, though I cannot claim any knowledge or even awareness toward this topic. As noted by Chris, the presence of spurs is well seated in American cowboy tradition, which has of course borne its origins in the colorful history of New Spain. This heritage in turn carries the traditions from medieval times and chivalry brought from the Iberian Peninsula.

I think that the distinct appearance and elaborate decoration may be more of a Spanish influence, more than regional application. While the huge rowel signifies the 'espeula grande' type , it seems more likely Spanish Southwest or Mexico, though certainly the gaucho examples are well noted.

The use of stars in linear motif would not signify American association in my opinion though, as these stars are known to be used in many types of insignia, flags and regalia. As spurs were often custom made, there seem to be any number of possibilities.

It is very true that the styles and flamboyance of Mexico in the material culture of its frontier and Spanish Colonial history is one of the very things that make the study of these arms and accoutrements so exciting in my opinion. The Mexican vaquero was stylish indeed, as were the Mexican cowboys who carried the traditions forward.

Returning to the movie images noted by Gene, who can forget the rugged and elaborately distinct character and flamboyantly festooned bandidos and revolutionaries in western movies with huge sombreros, bandoleers, flared pants and clanking rowel spurs. While some might see them as cartooned cliche's, I see beyond that and see the spirited and rugged caballeros who formed the character of not only Mexico, but very much America itself.

It would be great to learn more on spurs and thier history, and think it is an excellent topic to pursue further! Outstanding Gene, thank you!!

Alan, good one there from OZ, love the kangaroo kuddlers!!!

Chris, excellent note on the frequency of seeing spurs around, and I can formly attest to that as the 'bookmobile' courses through the Southwest constantly.

All the best,
Jim

Sorry mate, how did I miss this thread continuing?

As always Jim, great historical context, thank you
Even over here you do occasionally see antique 'American' (north and south) Spurs, but I've never seen one of this quality!

As for the cliche ridden movie depictions of Mexican cowboys, I still love them!
Of course I'm not a kid any more and I understand they are often more pantomine than historically accurate, in fact mostly the actors are of course not even Mexican!
Hmm, I think I'm going to have to have an afternoon of classic westerns!
Perhaps the 3 great Eastwood 'man with no name' outings?
Gian Maria Volonté as Ramon and Indio is a total revelation!

And Eli Walach's Tuco 'There are two types of spurs, those that come in through the door, and those that come in through the window'

Back on subject though, hopefully others will show their spurs too, as this is an interesting study.

Best
Gene

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Sure thing...

Living here in the Southwest, it's not that unusual to encounter spurs at auctions, estate sales, etc... there are particular stylistic cues associated with "Texas spurs," "California spurs," and "Mexican spurs." Similarly, I think the giant 437-spoked rowels almost always point towards a South American origin. Nice example, BTW... and even single spurs display quite nicely when placed with knives or swords from their respective place of origin.

Got Gaucho?

LOL, It's with my Argentinian gaucho knife now! Looks great, you're right

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Hi Gene,

It looks like a very fine spurs from Amozoc, in the State of Puebla, Mexico. Usually, the inlaids are made with silver. Search on the internet for "espuelas de Amozoc" (spurs from Amozoc). You will get additional info.
Regards

Gonzalo

PD: There are not many countries in America with a "cowboy" tradition. Only those who were herders in an important measure, like Argentina, Uruguay and Mexico. The cowboy tradition from the USA originated in Mexico, mainly on those states taken from our country, like Texas, Colorado and Nuevo Mexico.

Brilliant, thanks Gonzalo. Have just had a search Thank heavens for google translate!

[laEspadaAncha]

Good morning Gene (at least it is here on the beautiful Pacific ),

FWIW, I still am rather confident of a South American attribution, as evidenced by both the size and styling of the rowels (the round pointy wheels), neither of which resemble the style of Mexican spurs from Amozoc. Neither is the use of silver an identifier of Mexican origin, especially considering the prolific abundance of silver in the Plata region.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Good morning Gene (at least it is here on the beautiful Pacific ),

FWIW, I still am rather confident of a South American attribution, as evidenced by both the size and styling of the rowels (the round pointy wheels), neither of which resemble the style of Mexican spurs from Amozoc. Neither is the use of silver an identifier of Mexican origin, especially considering the prolific abundance of silver in the Plata region.

LOL, its another rainy day here
Thanks for the help. I did find a very similar pair listed on a website for sale and they were described as Mexican circa 1880 I think.
But then I really do know nothing about these things. The traditional 'tools of the trade' of the 'cow-punchers' of Devon England, are wellington boots, wax jackets and hedges! No open ranges and no 'round-ups'.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Hmmm... Not sure how that bit of subjective historical interpretation found its way onto a forum intended for the discussion of ethnographic weapons, but as an 8th-generation Californio I can at least be grateful you left the Bear Flag Republic off your list. I might also add, the Spanish Californios shared in the creation of the vaquero tradition in their herding of the 400,000 cattle that were maintained by the Missions and privately-held rancheros.

Thank you for conffirming my "subjective" statements. Of course, "cowboying" has a spanish, and latter a ver mexican origins on this geographical strip (there were not cattle, horses or spurs in America before the spanish), from the Gul of México to the Pacific, but I was not sure if I should include California. Now I will. And cowboy tradition has a lot to do with the previous posts and with the subject of spurs, since it permits to identify stylistic origins, as it is in the case of the Texan saddle, spurs and hats. Naturally, Mexico and the USA always had a very strong intercultural influence, and this is not a shame.

There were not "spanish" in California when it passed to the USA in the mid 19th century, since Meico got its independence since 1821 and all the spaniards were expelled from the country, though in the USA to this day they call mexicans as "hipanic" and this creates conffussion about national identities.

On other side, the size and styling of those rowels is NOT privative from South America, and in fact were very comon in south of Mexico as they have the same spanish origin. Anybody can check it, as there is abundant iconography of Chinacos using that kind of spurs. It is true that there are a great deal of variations among them through the geographical space and time span, but those spurs were very common at the end of the 18th century, beginning of the19th century, and in the south Mexico there were used to the times of the French invasion.


Regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much for the kind words Gene, I have always been fascinated by the history of Spain, and in particular the colonial history in the Americas.
Gonzalo, it is great to see you here! its been a while and good to see you posting.

I realize that some of these discussions can get a bit sensitive when dealing with a lot of this history, as there is of course a long history of conflicts and unfortunately much of this leads to some understandably empassioned response. I appreciate you guys keeping things on track and avoiding the kinds of interaction that can easily result. It is often hard to focus on the history without being distracted by perspectives politically or nationally charged.

Gonzalo, I have often told you how much I have always admired Mexico as well as its colorful history, and I hope my descriptions have illustrated that. Chris, I also have enjoyed talks with you and talked about my deep interest in the Californio heritage as well as your proud and intriguing lineage. As I have mentioned, I grew up in Southern California, and it was difficult not to be entirely aware of the magnificent presence of the Spanish and Mexican American heritage, tradition and culture. I could not resist my interest in Spanish colonial and the Mexican weapons that followed, finding complete interest in the history in entirety, from the time of the conquistadors into the history of the southwest and the cowboy traditions.

Again, its good to see you again, and thank you for as always, the great information from Mexico!!!

Thanks very much guys!

All the best,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Jim, thank you for your kind words. I agree with you.

A subject I forgot to mention: it is not relevant the fact that argentinians also have silver, but if they used the same techniques and stylistic motives to make their spurs. That would be interesting to establish. And please do not try to compare the ACTUAL production of Amozoc spurs, since today the models had suffered a great change, as natural. It is necessary to look for the older models.
Regards

Gonzalo

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

There were not "spanish" in California when it passed to the USA in the mid 19th century, since Meico got its independence since 1821 and all the spaniards were expelled from the country, though in the USA to this day they call mexicans as "hipanic" and this creates conffussion about national identities.

Gonzalo,

I referenced California's Spanish heritage for the sole purpose of clarifying that vaqueros existed here on the California frontier long before Mexico existed as a political entity. And thus, in truth, the vaqueros - at least those in California, where there were nearly a half-million heads of cattle - were of Spanish heritage.

While Mexican independence brought with it to California some welcome reforms, it also brought many unfortunate changes. However, to state that "Spaniards were expelled" is patently incorrect. There was no such expulsion, at least not here. The Californios who resided here under the Spanish standard continued to do so (and still do to this day - you are conversing with one). They welcomed the opportunity to trade with foreign merchants (though they already did so under Spanish rule, such trade was "officially" illicit).

But make no mistake about it - they never really considered themselves "Mexicans," a politically-born national identity from a seat of power thousands of kilometers away that meant nothing here on the California frontier. They considered themselves Californios. After Mexico had sent governors to rule, the Californios wholeheartedly rejected this imposed rule and revolted, and a Californio governor - Pio Pico - was once again elected to rule the state. When Andres Pico led his ranchero-born band of caballeros and vaqueros against the numerically superior U.S. 1st Dragoons in the Battle of San Pasqual in 1846 (not a dozen kilometers from where I sit and type this), they rode not as Mexicans, but as Californios. These families were second-generation Californios when the Mexican standard was raised in Monterey - while the flag may have changed, they remained the same. My great-great-great grandmother, Maria Encarnacion Pico - first cousin to Pio and Andres - was born here as a Spaniard. Her son, my great-great grandfather, died as an American. Yet through their two generations, and the generations that preceded them, they were always Californios.

I don't mean to be a stickler for such things, but one of my worst pet peeves is hearing a resident or first-generation immigrant of Mexican heritage refer to California as "occupied California" (not that you did this, as you clearly did not). Nothing could be further form the truth... California was born of Spain and flew under the Spanish standard for 56 years. And it is over the past 160 years as a proud member of the Union that we have flourished to become a global economic powerhouse. The 24 years in between during which the Mexican flag flew over the state capital were in truth inconsequential aside from the commerce-based reforms that would have taken place regardless less than a quarter-century later.

Mexico may be a proud part of our heritage and a small part of our history, but it is not part of our national identity.

Anyway, please do not take exception to any of this. I, along with thousands of others like me, are proud of our centuries-old California heritage, just as you are rightfully proud of your own.

Regarding the spurs, while there very well may be a remarkable difference between contemporary and period-original spurs from Amozoc, I can find no references to older spurs from Amozoc... I would be interested to see any references to such spurs for my own benefit if you have any links or published references you might share - I routinely encounter antique spurs at shows, auctions, and estate sales, and would be grateful for the opportunity to broaden my knowledge base. In the meantime, in the absence of such references, I still think the styling appears to be South American.




And lastly, Jim, you sir are indeed the consummate diplomat. Thank you for your willingness to proactively mitigate the risk of misunderstanding by illustrating the commonalities we share even when our opinions differ. In the end, I guess it is the espada ancha that binds us...

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Gonzalo! Very good point on the inevitable changes that would take place through the profound diffusion of influences that not only that permeated and were dispersed through the vast colonial spheres of Spain, but later of Mexico as it became an independant Republic.

Just as with all features of material culture including weapons, the original styles would have carried contemporary fashion and presence, while the nuances of other influences would imbue them progressively as time went on.
I think one of our greatest challenges in studying ethnographic weapons is to try to learn from the weapons themselves as they reveal these to us and help us see the actual history they have seen. Our task is virtually always to try to establish date and period so we can see these changes that often occur so subtly and sometimes vary by region as well.

Chris, thank you so much for those kind words, and I have been compelled to write on this as well, as California is as close as I have to having a true heritage of my own. I have expressed this before as I have discussed my deep passion for these collective facets of the distinct culture in the place where I spent my formitive years. You are indeed a Californio, and of proud Spanish descent, and Gonzalo is an extremely proud Mexican National. I hope those interpretations are expressed correctly, as I address them with my great admiration.
In truth, I wish I had such distinct and proud lineage, and though I was not born in California, I think of myself as Californian. Many of my brothers and sisters in law and my nieces and nephews are of Mexican American heritage, with profound ancestry from Mexico, and I have always been extremely proud of that fact as well, as to me it adds to the deep cultural texture that makes up our very multicultural family.

You have extremely well pointed out the nature of the progression of these cultures in the frontier context. When Mexico gained its independence in 1821, there was indeed no expulsion of Spaniards, nor otherwise dramatic change of any kind externally, the only thing that changed was the shift in political power. It was entirely a frontier culture in which there were various degrees of heritage, whether Peninsular or Mestizo as well as Native American ancestries. California had always considered itself a separate entity from Spain or Mexico, just as you have noted.

The history of Spain, the Spanish Southwest, Mexico and California are all rich parts of American history itself, and in my opinion have typically never received the attention they deserve in the studies of our history. Perhaps this is because there is too much potential for difficulties because of the very obvious volatility involved in perceptions of so many events and situations.
My best hope is for our learning and understanding of these important histories from an entirely objective point of view, and that eventually we can establish a clear and well presented record of all aspects of them.

I believe that one avenue of accomplishing such understanding is through the study of these important weapons and all forms of armor and accoutrements from these frontiers. In that, I hope we can continue the focus on the study of these beautiful spurs and bring in other examples of the weapons as well.

Yes, the espada ancha, and the fascination in all of these wonderfully historical weapons does bring us all together!

All the very best,
Jim

[Atlantia]

These are the ones I've found online that are the closest to my single spur

They are described:

MEXICAN SPURS CIRCA 1880'S

Very heavy Iron spurs decorated with silver in the typical Mexican fashion of the period. Very large (3 1/2" dia.)rowels and the old leather straps are still all intact. Show lots of use but still in fine condition. Great decorator.

[Berkley]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

hopefully others will show their spurs too, as this is an interesting study.

I agree that this is a most interesting study. Here is my lonely contribution to the discussion, a typical Mexican working spur with silver accents, nearly in relic condition I fear, and of no great distinction -

While attempting to learn something on the subject, I discovered an interesting old book online, The History of the Spur by Charles de Lacy: http://www.archive.org/stream/histor...ge/n7/mode/2up
I gather from an afternoon perusing the web that the espuela grande with a large multi-tined sunburst rowel is originally a Spanish design, in turn derived from Northern European versions such as this Cavalier spur shown in de Lacy:

Since they are Spanish in origin, the sunburst-rowelled spurs appear to be found throughout Mexico and South America. A brief search of the web produces these specimens, described (clockwise from top left) as South American, Argentine, and Chilean.

If identification of the place of origin of any particular piece is the goal, regional variations in decorative patterns may be more important than the design of the spur.
Alas, I am unlikely to ever be fortunate enough to possess even one of these beautiful espuelas.

[Atlantia]

Big welcome to the thread Berkley.

Great research, and a nice 'working' Spur BTW! (In fact it seems rather fancy for just a working spur!)
So it looks as though my example could be either from Mexico or further south?
I wonder how unusual these elaborate examples are?

[Nagawarrior]

Your spur is from Chili.
I own Tim's spurs now.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=62985
I did research and contacted Abel A. Domenech.
Mr. Domenech says definitely Chilean.
Search Chilean spurs and you will find many examples.
Hope this helps.
Love my spurs. They are awesome and go well with my Gaucho display.
Best,
Stephen*

P.S. They are called something like cry babies or something like that because of the sound they make when walking. I forget the spanish word for it.

P.S.S. Here is his response;
"Dear Stephen:
Thank you so much for your kind message and comments about my article.
You got a very nice pair of spurs indeed!.
This type is known here as "lloronas" (something like "criers" or "which make cry") may be due to the metallic sound they do when walking while wearing them associated with the sound of a human crying.
Actually, this type of big roundel spiked spurs were much popular in Chile, our neighbour Country, just crossing the cordillera of Andes (mountain chain).
I´m not an speciallist of spurs, but I bet these spurs of yours, are of Chilean make, and most probably of XIX C.
They usually have silver inclussions on the "frame", which I can´t see well in your picture.
Also, they are sometimes marked with the name of the silversmith who made them, and this detail is dessirable in any piece of silverware or gaucho item.
Hope this little information is of interest to you, and I wish you enjoy very much these nice spurs.
Thank you again, and receive my cordial regards,"

Abel D.

[Gonzalo G]

With all due respect to my friend Abel, he does not know the Mexican spurs. Atlantia has already demonstrated with examples that this kind of spurs also come from Mexico. Just see the photos. In any case, this style, as established, come also from Mexico. But neverthless, everybody can be mistaken in this specific case, and only a close examination or study can bring definite results, as this subject is not a matter of faith. Maybe a test on the silver can determinate the Mexican or South American origin. I also would like to know a definitive scientific ID, different from the opinions, mine included.
Regards

Gonzalo

[laEspadaAncha]

FWIW, I sent the photos of Gene's spur to noted spur expert and author Kurt House, to whom I had previously reached out to request assistance identifying a pair of spurs I had acquired at an auction earlier this year. He has authored and published several books on spurs and has forgotten more about spurs than most of us will ever know... Once again, he was kind enough to reply:

"Chris: Rarely can I state anything with 100% confidence, but this Chilean spur is an exception. No doubt about it, I can prove it, which is rare.

Kurt House"


Seems pretty definitive to me.

[Gonzalo G]

Not to me. It looks like another opinion based on the most common places, and I don´t accept opninions merely based on a principle of authority. On the other side, based on what I just saw, I don´t have much confidence about the knowledge from non-Latin American aficionados about Latin American items (even about Spanish items, if not comming from Spanish connoisseurs). Specially when I have direct knowledge about this items and I don´t need to base my opinions on a third party. Besides, for what I see Mr. House is not specialized in antique Mexican or Latin American spurs, but in USA´s cowboys. I can argument more on this subject but I don´t see any reason to continue this discussion under any circumstances, since all points of view were exposed, I already proposed a scientific method to clear this point, and I don´t have a personal interest insisting on this point.

The silver from South America can be metallographically distinguished from the Mexican.

Bye

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

On the other side, based on what I just saw, I don´t have much confidence about the knowledge from non-Latin American aficionados about Latin American items (even about Spanish items, if not comming from Spanish connoisseurs).

To suggest an individual's ethnic identity is somehow a necessary or sufficient condition to becoming an expert in subjects pertaining to their ethnicity is simply ludicrous. Just because one's personal connection to a subject provides a different perspective, and in some cases may - and I stress may - lend added value to understanding a subject (e.g., the ethnographic studies of some pueblo cultures) does not logically equate to it being a valid nor "most" valid perspective.

I guess in your opinion, the scientific method you cite in the same paragraph is only valid when the tester is of the same ethnographic origin as the data which he or she tests?

You could choose to show the respect and courtesy of writing one of the foremost experts in the field to personally inquire into the depth of his knowledge and experience with spurs of Meso American or South American origin, and then base your opinion on data. Or you could choose to simply dismiss the certitude of someone who has probably forgotten more about spurs than you and I will ever know based on nothing other than your - and his - ethnic identity. Either way, it is your prerogative.

In all fairness to Kurt House, in addition to having written books - that's books, as in plural - on the subject, he has been collecting spurs for 40 years and for nearly ten years has been the Director of the National Bit, Spur, and Saddle Collectors Association (notice it is not the "National Bit, American Spur, and Saddle Collectors Association." To assume his expertise is limited to items only originating north of the Rio Grande is awfully presumptive).

FWIW, when I asked him why he was so certain, he told me that in addition to the data he has collected over nearly a half century of research, he has encountered this same pattern of spur acquired from indigenous flea markets in Chile, and went on to say, and I quote, "the only way that spur can be thought to be Mexican is if it passed through Mexico on its way from Chile."

[Lew]

Gentlemen

I can only see this thread heading down a dark road. Opinions have been formed and I can see no further benefit from continuing the discussion.