Dagger

Robert · 20th November 2005, 10:32 PM

Here is a nice dagger I picked up recently that as usual I would like to have everyones comments on. The blade is the same on both sides, not flat on one side like alot of these were.

blade length is 14-7/16 inches
blade width at widest point is 1-1/2 inches
blade thickness at thickest point 5/16 inch
hilt length is 4-3/4 inches
grip is wood

RhysMichael · 20th November 2005, 11:17 PM

I wonder if this started its life as a spear, just a thought

VANDOO · 20th November 2005, 11:52 PM

IT DOES APPEAR TO HAVE A BUILT IN BOLSTER LIKE SPEAR HEADS BUT IT LOOKS FLAT RATHER THAN ROUND WHICH WOULD BE UNUSUAL FOR A SPEAR BLADE. THE HANDLE IS ALSO SORT OF STRANGE WITH THE GUARD AND POORLY CARVED MONSTER HEAD POMMEL. IT DOES LOOK LIKE A LOT MORE WORK WENT INTO MAKEING THE BLADE THAN THE FITTINGS SO THE BLADE IS PROBABLY OLDER AND MOST LIKELY A SPEAR HEAD. A INTERESTING ITEM

Robert · 21st November 2005, 12:09 AM

Vandoo and RhysMichael,
I don't really think this blade was ever a spear. The blade is not straight, it actually curves downward as it goes toward the point, though it is hard to see this in these pictures. I do believe like you that it has been rehilted at some point in time.

Robert

Mark · 21st November 2005, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Vandoo and RhysMichael,
I don't really think this blade was ever a spear. The blade is not straight, it actually curves downward as it goes toward the point, though it is hard to see this in these pictures. I do believe like you that it has been rehilted at some point in time.

Robert

I was wondering about the curve. And are the two "halves" of the blade, on either side of the spine, of different widths or is that just the camera angle? Perhaps it was originally made as a dagger with a European cruciform mounting?

Robert · 21st November 2005, 01:14 AM

Mark,
The medial ridge is centered on the blade. If it was rehilted (like I think it could have been) I think the original hilt might possably have been a round horn grip with steel or brass ferrells and guard.

Lew · 21st November 2005, 07:15 AM

Hi Robert

I think your blade started out as a dagger I have seen this style on the ricasso before on an old dagger with a twin demon head hilt. Your piece seems to have been rehilted the wood and scabbard are too crude for such a fine quality blade. Still a very nice find!

Lew

Robert · 21st November 2005, 08:47 AM

Hi Lew,
You wouldn't happen to have a picture of the dagger that you were referring to would you?

Robert

Lew · 21st November 2005, 03:12 PM

The dagger in question belonged to Zelbone he may still have a picture of it.

Lew

tom hyle · 22nd November 2005, 01:04 AM

I noted the curvature with a bit of excitement, as it resembles that of a dagger I own (which is DE chisel bevelled/triangular cross-section, as you mention this one is not). I believe this to be a feature related to the curvature of gunongs and ultimately of kris.

Ian · 25th November 2005, 08:45 PM

The dress of this dagger, with its deity hilt and scabbard typical of the Visayas, suggest that this one comes from the central Philippines. While the deity hilt might indicate western Visayas, the scabbard is more reminiscent of the eastern Visayas. The blade style is definitely of western influence, probably Spanish.

Speaking of Zel's double-head hilted deity dagger, here is a link to a previous thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=4950&stc=1
It is the dagger at the bottom. The ricasso looks quite similar to the example posted above.

Robert · 25th November 2005, 10:32 PM

Ian,
Thank you for the information and the link. Like you I think it has definite Spanish influence to its styling. To me mine looks more like a cross between the second and third ones pictured in the link. The blade is more like the second while the ricasso is more like the bottom one. The other thing about mine is the blade has a slight downward curve to it that is hard to see in the pictures that I thought was interesting. Thanks again.

Robert

tom hyle · 26th November 2005, 05:00 PM

I think the curve is very important, and is a distinctly SE Asian influence.

Robert · 11th January 2011, 10:04 PM

I thought that I would drag up this old post in hopes of possibly getting some new information on this dagger. If some new pictures would help please just let me know and I will post them. Comments and any new information on this dagger would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Robert

Battara · 12th January 2011, 02:38 AM

I'm with Ian, it has a Visayan look to me, especially the pommel and the scabbard.

Robert · 12th January 2011, 07:23 PM

Hello Jose, I also agree that it looks to be Visayan in its origin but the blade is really strange in its design to be from that region. The fact that it is double edged and has the same raised medial ridge on both sides, plus being that it is curved strikes me as being quite odd.

As I stated early on if it wasn't for being curved I would think that it could be a re-hilted spear head.

Robert

Robert · 13th January 2011, 03:45 AM

Here are two pictures of the dagger that show both sides of the blade and how the blade has a slight curve to its shape and not straight as would normally be found on a spear tip. I hope that these might help.

Robert

tom hyle · 19th March 2011, 04:43 AM

AS I said, the curve is appropriate to the type; broadly a gunong or ie. kris-like sword/dagger. It is of a type, not singular, though as has been mentioned, most/many are triangle section, and do seem to be Visayan. I believe the handle is probably original.

tom hyle · 19th March 2011, 04:44 AM

almost certainly called a daga in its native culture, but perhaps a punal. Both are Spainish words, yes?

tom hyle · 19th March 2011, 05:16 PM

Visayan and/or Batangas? My little one has a full length tang and a very Batangoid spiral shape to its grip, but is of triangle section.

20th November 2005, 10:32 PM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Dagger Here is a nice dagger I picked up recently that as usual I would like to have everyones comments on. The blade is the same on both sides, not flat on one side like alot of these were. blade length is 14-7/16 inches blade width at widest point is 1-1/2 inches blade thickness at thickest point 5/16 inch hilt length is 4-3/4 inches grip is wood Attached Images

21st November 2005, 03:12 PM	#9
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	The dagger in question belonged to Zelbone he may still have a picture of it. Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 21st November 2005 at 07:11 PM.

25th November 2005, 08:45 PM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	A Visayan dagger with Spanish influence The dress of this dagger, with its deity hilt and scabbard typical of the Visayas, suggest that this one comes from the central Philippines. While the deity hilt might indicate western Visayas, the scabbard is more reminiscent of the eastern Visayas. The blade style is definitely of western influence, probably Spanish. Speaking of Zel's double-head hilted deity dagger, here is a link to a previous thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...tid=4950&stc=1 It is the dagger at the bottom. The ricasso looks quite similar to the example posted above.

13th January 2011, 03:45 AM	#17
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Here are two pictures of the dagger that show both sides of the blade and how the blade has a slight curve to its shape and not straight as would normally be found on a spear tip. I hope that these might help. Robert Attached Images

20th November 2005, 11:17 PM	#2
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	I wonder if this started its life as a spear, just a thought

20th November 2005, 11:52 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT DOES APPEAR TO HAVE A BUILT IN BOLSTER LIKE SPEAR HEADS BUT IT LOOKS FLAT RATHER THAN ROUND WHICH WOULD BE UNUSUAL FOR A SPEAR BLADE. THE HANDLE IS ALSO SORT OF STRANGE WITH THE GUARD AND POORLY CARVED MONSTER HEAD POMMEL. IT DOES LOOK LIKE A LOT MORE WORK WENT INTO MAKEING THE BLADE THAN THE FITTINGS SO THE BLADE IS PROBABLY OLDER AND MOST LIKELY A SPEAR HEAD. A INTERESTING ITEM

21st November 2005, 12:09 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Vandoo and RhysMichael, I don't really think this blade was ever a spear. The blade is not straight, it actually curves downward as it goes toward the point, though it is hard to see this in these pictures. I do believe like you that it has been rehilted at some point in time. Robert

21st November 2005, 01:14 AM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Mark, The medial ridge is centered on the blade. If it was rehilted (like I think it could have been) I think the original hilt might possably have been a round horn grip with steel or brass ferrells and guard.

21st November 2005, 07:15 AM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Robert I think your blade started out as a dagger I have seen this style on the ricasso before on an old dagger with a twin demon head hilt. Your piece seems to have been rehilted the wood and scabbard are too crude for such a fine quality blade. Still a very nice find! Lew

21st November 2005, 08:47 AM	#8
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hi Lew, You wouldn't happen to have a picture of the dagger that you were referring to would you? Robert

22nd November 2005, 01:04 AM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I noted the curvature with a bit of excitement, as it resembles that of a dagger I own (which is DE chisel bevelled/triangular cross-section, as you mention this one is not). I believe this to be a feature related to the curvature of gunongs and ultimately of kris.

25th November 2005, 10:32 PM	#12
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Ian, Thank you for the information and the link. Like you I think it has definite Spanish influence to its styling. To me mine looks more like a cross between the second and third ones pictured in the link. The blade is more like the second while the ricasso is more like the bottom one. The other thing about mine is the blade has a slight downward curve to it that is hard to see in the pictures that I thought was interesting. Thanks again. Robert

26th November 2005, 05:00 PM	#13
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I think the curve is very important, and is a distinctly SE Asian influence.

11th January 2011, 10:04 PM	#14
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I thought that I would drag up this old post in hopes of possibly getting some new information on this dagger. If some new pictures would help please just let me know and I will post them. Comments and any new information on this dagger would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Robert

12th January 2011, 02:38 AM	#15
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I'm with Ian, it has a Visayan look to me, especially the pommel and the scabbard.

12th January 2011, 07:23 PM	#16
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Jose, I also agree that it looks to be Visayan in its origin but the blade is really strange in its design to be from that region. The fact that it is double edged and has the same raised medial ridge on both sides, plus being that it is curved strikes me as being quite odd. As I stated early on if it wasn't for being curved I would think that it could be a re-hilted spear head. Robert

19th March 2011, 04:43 AM	#18
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	AS I said, the curve is appropriate to the type; broadly a gunong or ie. kris-like sword/dagger. It is of a type, not singular, though as has been mentioned, most/many are triangle section, and do seem to be Visayan. I believe the handle is probably original.

19th March 2011, 04:44 AM	#19
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	almost certainly called a daga in its native culture, but perhaps a punal. Both are Spainish words, yes?

19th March 2011, 05:16 PM	#20
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Visayan and/or Batangas? My little one has a full length tang and a very Batangoid spiral shape to its grip, but is of triangle section.