Islamic bow for I.D. and comment

[colin henshaw]

Can anyone assist to identify this recent acquisition. Its in pretty worn condition. I'm thinking maybe its Persian or Turkish.

Any relevant information would be helpful, thanks.

[David R]

With those long "arms" I would guess Chinese myself.

[Philip]

It is Chinese, but specifically the Manchu type which virtually supplanted the earlier Chinese and Mongol-styled bows (which resembled those still made in Korea) in China after the 17th cent.

The extensions at the end of the limbs are often referred to as "ears", and although they serve as attachments for the string, they do not flex. There is supposed to be a bridge at the base of each ear that the string makes contact with after the arrow is released, to maintain the alignment of the ears. The ears provide that extra leverage to propel the arrow, along the same principle as the spear-throwers developed by various cultures. They also allowed a very long draw-length. This enabled the bow to shoot large and heavy arrows that maximized projectile energy at the expense of velocity and range. The weight of the ears slowed down the movement of the flexible limbs to a certain extent, and thus Manchu bows were not suitable for propelling lightweight arrows at high velocity for very long distances as their Korean and Turkish counterparts are designed to do.

The Manchus developed a hunting culture requiring mounted shooters to take medium and large sized game (bear, elk, boar, tiger) at short to moderate distances in terrain that was forested or hilly and brush-covered. When they turned their focus to military conquest and the building of a new dynasty, this type of bow which emphasized knockdown power and aerodynamically stable arrows for accuracy at shorter ranges was found to be useful, since these weapons could easily penetrate chainmail and shoot accurately in close-quarter mounted skirmishing.

[Gonzalo G]

Very well exposed by Philip.
Colin, if you like to see movies, get "War of the Arrows" (Choi-jong-byeong-gi hwal, 2011, english subs). There you can find observations from the Manchu warriors, comparing their bows with the Korean ones. And have fun looking these weapons in action. The Manchu bows required different tactics for the mounted archer's units than the used by the nomadic Mongols and Turks, those last more proper for the steppe conditions of terrain (vast open spaces). And although the Manchu arrows were more precise at shorter distances and had more stopping power, I wonder if the velocity of the Mongol and Turkish arrows compensate de mass difference with the Manchu arrows in their piercing capacity over armour.
Regards

[Philip]

Thanks, Gonzalo, for referencing that film. You might be interested in hunting down a copy of THE DIARY OF A MANCHU SOLDIER IN 17TH-CENT. CHINA, which is a translation by Nicola di Cosmo of a handwritten diary by a soldier named Dzengseo of his experience on campaign against Ming rebels in the southwest near the Burma frontier (Routledge: NY, also in UK/Canada, 2006).

The journal provides many references to the role of archery in battles of the era, particularly in conjunction with the deployment of firearms and artillery. It is important to note that the Manchus, though holding up the bow and arrow as cultural icons, made ample use of firearms in their conquest of China, and their successful campaigns against hostile Mongol tribes, in Central Asia, and the Himalayas. (the only non-Chinese foe they faced which had an equally firm grounding in the use of guns were the Vietnamese, and for various reasons they didn't fare well against them).

From the onset, the Manchus had ready access to muskets and cannons thanks to large formations of disaffected Ming Dynasty troops who joined their cause, along with small numbers of Korean and even Cossack war captives who were absorbed into the Banners. It is also worth noting that the Ottomans, though they excelled at archery, utilized firearms from the mid-15th cent. onwards; their use of massive siege artillery at Constantinople in 1453 (provided thanks to the expertise of a mercenary Hungarian), is notable for not only its ultimate success but its early adoption by an Eastern culture.

Dzengseo's combat experience as recorded in the diary amply illustrates the perfect fit of the Manchu bow to the preferred battle tactics, which emphasized shooting individual opponents from the saddle, in keeping with the hunting methods perfected in Northeast Asia. ( In another thread (the one about an Algerian musket) I commented on remarks about cavalry firepower made by a British officer during the Peninsular War, which you may find relevant to this discussion as well. ) Volley fire with Manchu bows was not the norm, although the diary does describe its use in repelling a charge by war elephants.

As regards to your comments about missile velocity and range, I can offer the analogy of my experience with shooting high-powered rifles. A cartridge such as .222 Remington sends small light bullets zinging along at dazzling speeds, the trajectory is flat and accuracy at far distances is wonderful to behold. But deflection by crosswinds, or plant growth in the field, affect light projectiles more, and air friction reduces energy at longer ranges as well. A round like .458 Winchester has a massive slug that travels more like a heavy truck than a race car, but boy does it pack a punch -- just what you need to put down that bull moose. It all boils down to physics, no matter if it involves arrows or bullets.

[estcrh]

This is a great representation of a Chinese soldier.

Portrait of a Chinese Imperial Bodyguard (Zhanyinbao), with archery equipment and wearing a sheathed dao (1760). This full-length depiction of an imperial bodyguard of the first rank is from a set of one hundred portraits of loyal officials and valiant warriors commissioned by the Qianlong emperor (r. 1736–95) that originally hung in the Hall of Imperial Brilliance (Ziguang Ge), the pavilion in the Forbidden City where the emperor received tribute offerings and entertained foreign emissaries.

[Philip]

Thanks for sharing this image!

An interesting aside is the position of the saber in its scabbard, hung so that its hilt faces the rear, to avoid getting tangled with the bow in its case, which faces forward. This is typical Manchu practice.

It actually makes for an efficient draw of the blade, since the soldier would have to rotate the lower part of the scabbard rearward with the left hand, and his right will be grasping the hilt for an EDGE UP draw. With the saber fully out, he can cut in any direction as opposed to an edge-down draw, which requires an additional twist of the wrist to deploy the weapon's edge against an opponent. It is for this very reason that many Eastern swords are worn edge-up in a sash (katana, yataghan), or slung on a belt in such way to permit this kind of draw (the shashka is a prime example). If you have a sheathed kilij or shamshir without is suspension cords, try rigging up your own suspension and you will find that these sabers tend to hang in a peculiar angle with the edge up and slightly outward from the side of the body. Factoring in the deep curve of many of these, it makes for a very ergonomic draw!

[estcrh]

Philip, thanks so much for sharing some of your Chinese archery knowledge. Here is a Chinese bow I recently bought, waiting for it to arrive.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Philip

Thanks, Gonzalo, for referencing that film. You might be interested in hunting down a copy of THE DIARY OF A MANCHU SOLDIER IN 17TH-CENT. CHINA, which is a translation by Nicola di Cosmo of a handwritten diary by a soldier named Dzengseo of his experience on campaign against Ming rebels in the southwest near the Burma frontier (Routledge: NY, also in UK/Canada, 2006).

Actually the campaign was called the War of the Three Feudatories (1673–1682), developed mainly in Yunnan, Guizhou and Guangxi. Very interesting book, thank you for remind it to me.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Philip

As regards to your comments about missile velocity and range, I can offer the analogy of my experience with shooting high-powered rifles. A cartridge such as .222 Remington sends small light bullets zinging along at dazzling speeds, the trajectory is flat and accuracy at far distances is wonderful to behold. But deflection by crosswinds, or plant growth in the field, affect light projectiles more, and air friction reduces energy at longer ranges as well. A round like .458 Winchester has a massive slug that travels more like a heavy truck than a race car, but boy does it pack a punch -- just what you need to put down that bull moose. It all boils down to physics, no matter if it involves arrows or bullets.

I agree on that. That's why I prefer a .45 auto or a .40 S&W over a 9mm pistol. But the penetration power over armour is another thing. I conducted tests with a .260 Remington and a .308 Wichester, among other calibers, over manganese steel sheets. The smaller, but faster .260 had more penetration. On the other hand, the Mongols and Turks did use the tactic of shooting in volleys, so precision was not so important as in close range.
Regards

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by estcrh

This is a great representation of a Chinese soldier.

Portrait of a Chinese Imperial Bodyguard (Zhanyinbao), with archery equipment and wearing a sheathed dao (1760). This full-length depiction of an imperial bodyguard of the first rank is from a set of one hundred portraits of loyal officials and valiant warriors commissioned by the Qianlong emperor (r. 1736–95) that originally hung in the Hall of Imperial Brilliance (Ziguang Ge), the pavilion in the Forbidden City where the emperor received tribute offerings and entertained foreign emissaries.

Estcrh, thank you for sharing this image and the photo of your bow. It is nice to see that kind of weapons. I wonder if your bow can be still used. Though I understand that special care must be given to the limbs if you try to put a string over an old bow. A risky procedure.
Do you have an idea of the age of your bow?
Regards

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Estcrh, thank you for sharing this image and the photo of your bow. It is nice to see that kind of weapons. I wonder if your bow can be still used. Though I understand that special care must be given to the limbs if you try to put a string over an old bow. A risky procedure.
Do you have an idea of the age of your bow?
Regards

Gonzalo, I have wondered about that myself, but I would not take the risk of cracking it. It is a Chinese composite bow, early 19th century, 36 inches long, 16 inches wide.

[Gonzalo G]

Thank you for your response and the measures. Yes, it´s better to stay on the safe side and don't force those old limbs. It is a valuable and beautiful piece.
Regards

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Can anyone assist to identify this recent acquisition. Its in pretty worn condition. I'm thinking maybe its Persian or Turkish.

Any relevant information would be helpful, thanks.

Salaams Colin Henshaw,
You have introduced a great subject... I Quote https://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/gr...carchery.shtml "From medieval times through the nineteenth century, archers of the Islamic crescent, stretching from Turkey eastward to India, were renowned for both their exceptional skills and superior weapons. As a necessary means of advancing the spread of Islam, weapons traditionally held a religious association in Muslim cultures. The bow and arrow, which are extolled in many sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, held a special place above all others. Training in archery was seen as a religious duty and a sign of status, and the craftmanship of archery equipment was highly esteemed. The legacy of Islamic archery is exemplified by the archery traditions and equipment of Ottoman Turkey (1453–1922), of Iran during the Safavid–Qajar periods (1502–1925), and of the Indian subcontinent throughout the Mughal era (1526–1857), which blended Islamic and Hindu cultural elements"Unquote.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Below Jarmakee ...The peculiar position for firing at targets directly below...from a fort wall.

The archer in blue on a black horse is Ottoman firing directly behind him.

See https://www.google.com/search?q=turk...M361TX6vGa6hM:

The bigger picture shows a mounted Mongolian Archer...

The Indo Persian bow picture and write up can be seen at https://www.pinterest.com/pin/363243526177126131/

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Estcrh, thank you for sharing this image and the photo of your bow. It is nice to see that kind of weapons. I wonder if your bow can be still used. Though I understand that special care must be given to the limbs if you try to put a string over an old bow. A risky procedure.
Do you have an idea of the age of your bow?
Regards

Somewhere in my reading I encountered an old Turkish adage stating that the lifetime of a bow is twice that of a man. 'Have been looking through my references for the citation but haven't found it yet, will advise when I do. A lot of my knowledge of these things comes from a colleague, Peter Dekker in Amsterdam, I have forwarded this thread to him and hope that he will contribute something soon.

We both know a fellow in Taiwan who makes Manchu bows in the traditional style, and what's more, is able to restore the performance capabilities of antique bows (that is, assuming that the organic materials have not been consumed by rot, or riddled by insect or worm). It seems that on old bows, what tends to fail with age is the animal or fish glue that holds the laminae together -- exactly the problem that plagues antique string instruments as well. Renew that, with the proper level of skill, and a bow can be brought back to life! Some of these glues can also be rejuvenated in themselves, without having to replace them with modern material (violin restorers do the same thing). Hopefully Mr Dekker will chime in soon on this thread with a more detailed explanation.

I haven't shot any of these old bows myself, but have handled a good number of these in collections. More than a few appear to have been damaged by idiots who have tried to bend them in the WRONG direction. You can tell from looking at what points the laminations have separated.
Haha, on one occasion a collector who showed me his damaged bow told me that's exactly what a "friend" of his tried to do. These weapons were not designed to flex "either way"!

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Thank you for your response and the measures. Yes, it´s better to stay on the safe side and don't force those old limbs. It is a valuable and beautiful piece.
Regards

Wise advice, Gonzalo. Stringing a composite bow calls for its own techniques. Do you have Paul E Klopsteg's TURKISH ARCHERY AND THE COMPOSITE BOW (Manchester University, Museum: 1934 repr 1987)? Practically everything you wanted to know about design, manufacture, history, performance, and shooting techniques involving Ottoman bows, with comparative notes in an appendix with mention of Chinese, Korean, and modern (as of the 1930s) longbows. A lot of the material is excerpted from old Turkish manuals and the notes are mostly by archers who traveled and observed.

The info includes detailed instructions on stringing, and the appendix notes also explain how ambient temperature must be taken into account in order to do it safely with "difficult" bows.

[estcrh]

Thanks to Philip, Peter and a few other individuals, in the last few years a lot of information on Chinese archery and Chinese weapons in general has become available to learn from, both as images and text.

Something not often seen is good closeup images of Chinese arrows, here is an example of a Chinese bow with arrows.

Composite Chinese Bow and Arrows

A nice find: A complete 19C. Chinese bow with 10 arrows. The bow is of the composite structure, 43 inches long, 21 inches wide. The edges as well as the edges are covered with ray skin, dyed in green and white, and inlaid with antelope and bird also cut from ray skin. The arrows are long, 35 inches each with steel blades and long feathered tails.

[estcrh]

Chinese "Manchu" arrows, from http://www.manchuarchery.org/arrows

[Gonzalo G]

[QUOTE=Ibrahiim al Balooshi]"From medieval times through the nineteenth century, archers of the Islamic crescent, stretching from Turkey eastward to India, were renowned for both their exceptional skills and superior weapons. As a necessary means of advancing the spread of Islam, weapons traditionally held a religious association in Muslim cultures. The bow and arrow, which are extolled in many sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, held a special place above all others. Training in archery was seen as a religious duty and a sign of status, and the craftmanship of archery equipment was highly esteemed. The legacy of Islamic archery is exemplified by the archery traditions and equipment of Ottoman Turkey (1453–1922), of Iran during the Safavid–Qajar periods (1502–1925), and of the Indian subcontinent throughout the Mughal era (1526–1857), which blended Islamic and Hindu cultural elements"

Just for precison, Ibrahim, though I don't disagree with the cultural and religious importance of archery in the Muslim culture, the role of archery, its cultural importance and even the type of bow from the Persians, Ottomans, Mughal and Mamluke dynasties in India, does not derive from their religion, but from their Central Asian cultural and military heritage. It was there before the islamization of the Persians and Turks and is the same of that of the Mongols, and before them the Partians and Scythians, Hsiung-nu and many others. Remember that the Ottomans and Seljuks were only part of an inmense confederation of the Oghuz Turks, who roamed in the Eurasian steppe and just latter some of them converted to Islam. The same apply to the Mongols and Turks integrated in a Central Asian Empire which is the origin of the Mughals of India. Maybe Islam reinforced this cultural current, or maybe it was the other way around, that this pre-existing culture of archery among those peoples reinforced that of the already had by the Islamic conquerors who spread their religion to Persia and part of Central Asia.

Regards

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Philip

Do you have Paul E Klopsteg's TURKISH ARCHERY AND THE COMPOSITE BOW (Manchester University, Museum: 1934 repr 1987)? Practically everything you wanted to know about design, manufacture, history, performance, and shooting techniques involving Ottoman bows, with comparative notes in an appendix with mention of Chinese, Korean, and modern (as of the 1930s) longbows. A lot of the material is excerpted from old Turkish manuals and the notes are mostly by archers who traveled and observed.

The info includes detailed instructions on stringing, and the appendix notes also explain how ambient temperature must be taken into account in order to do it safely with "difficult" bows.

No, Philip. I didn't have it and I have nor read it. Thanks to you, I just get one copy. And I would appreciate more recommendations from you on the matter of historic archery, how to make and use historic bows and related subjects. Thank you. I appreciate very much all the advice and guidance I can get from the people whom I share this kind of inclinations for the historic weapons. Unfortunately, where I live I don't have the oppotunity to access many items and that imposes me several limitations.

My best regards

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by estcrh

A nice find: A complete 19C. Chinese bow with 10 arrows. The bow is of the composite structure, 43 inches long, 21 inches wide. The edges as well as the edges are covered with ray skin, dyed in green and white, and inlaid with antelope and bird also cut from ray skin. The arrows are long, 35 inches each with steel blades and long feathered tails.

Thank you for those pictures and the link, Estcrh. Great bow! seems also Manchu style, and is complete, with the "bridges" to guide the string, The collection of arrows is very interesting.

Pity that Philip is on the other side of the border, for if he would be instead on Texas, I could cross the border to talk with him.

Regards

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

I appreciate very much all the advice and guidance I can get from the people whom I share this kind of inclinations for the historic weapons. Unfortunately, where I live I don't have the oppotunity to access many items and that imposes me several limitations.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Pity that Philip is on the other side of the border, for if he would be instead on Texas, I could cross the border to talk with him.

Gonzalo, I agree with you completely on both counts, in fact the reason I started collecting in the first place was that there was so I could hold and see these types of weapons up close since there seemed to be no other way to do this, unfortunately museums are very limited in the way of hands on teaching, thankfully the internet has helped fill in many blank spots as far as knowledge of historical weapons and armor goes.

Philip Tom, Peter Dekker and many other interested people have helped add a whole new level to the amount of easily findable information on Chinese weapons, I can remember when there was virtually no images or information available.

Anyone interested in the subject of Chinese archery should check out these links.

http://www.manchuarchery.org/articles-manchu-archery

http://www.mandarinmansion.com/welcome

http://www.atarn.net/phpBB2/index.php

https://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/gr...aarchery.shtml

[estcrh]

Chinese bow case and quiver from http://www.manchuarchery.org/qing-bow-cases-quivers

A set of bow case, quiver and belt in the Charles E. Grayson collection. This type of bow case and quiver would have been worn by the imperial guard of the late 19th century. The bow case is suspended from a fittings that can slide over the belt. Also note the extra straps on the back to counterbalance the quiver. Photo courtesy of Jonathan Stephanoff.


Manchu officer Badai and his quiver. The quiver represents the standard quiver model in use in the mid 18th century, the height of the Qing's military power. Note the three slits in the front and the three pockets on the back that were common for this era. Painting held in the Asian Art Museum of Berlin. Badai was honored for breaking enemy lines single handedly. According to the poem accompanying the scroll, he fell from his horse, hastily dressed his wounds and continued shooting: "Many were felled as he snapped the string of his bow".

[estcrh]

In comparison, Indian kaman bows, quiver and arrows that I have.

[estcrh]

It is interesting how even though most of the world had abandoned archery for guns the Chinese still valued archery.


Archery Drill by Chinese Soldiers in the Streets of Peking, 1894

The bow and arrow is the national arm, every year great reviews are held in Peking, and strict examinations take place in archery. The man who can draw the strongest bow is made a Mandarin, good marksmen also receive notice. It is an ordinary sight to see men practicing in the streets, and there are special schools for training young men how to hold and draw the bow gracefully, and many hours are wasted every day with the arms propped up with sticks in the most uncomfortable position, to enable them to perform this difficult feat. The manner of holding the bow appears strange to western ideas, but it is noteworthy that the merit of the archer is as much judged by his knowledge of "position drill" as by correctness of aim.

[colin henshaw]

Thanks to those who have responded about this bow, most informative. Asian & Islamic archery would make a good new subject for study.

[colin henshaw]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Very well exposed by Philip.
Colin, if you like to see movies, get "War of the Arrows" (Choi-jong-byeong-gi hwal, 2011, english subs). There you can find observations from the Manchu warriors, comparing their bows with the Korean ones. And have fun looking these weapons in action. The Manchu bows required different tactics for the mounted archer's units than the used by the nomadic Mongols and Turks, those last more proper for the steppe conditions of terrain (vast open spaces). And although the Manchu arrows were more precise at shorter distances and had more stopping power, I wonder if the velocity of the Mongol and Turkish arrows compensate de mass difference with the Manchu arrows in their piercing capacity over armour.
Regards

Thanks Gonzalo G, saw a bit of that film on Youtube, it looks like fun...

Regards

[colin henshaw]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Colin Henshaw,
You have introduced a great subject... I Quote https://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/gr...carchery.shtml "From medieval times through the nineteenth century, archers of the Islamic crescent, stretching from Turkey eastward to India, were renowned for both their exceptional skills and superior weapons. As a necessary means of advancing the spread of Islam, weapons traditionally held a religious association in Muslim cultures. The bow and arrow, which are extolled in many sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, held a special place above all others. Training in archery was seen as a religious duty and a sign of status, and the craftmanship of archery equipment was highly esteemed. The legacy of Islamic archery is exemplified by the archery traditions and equipment of Ottoman Turkey (1453–1922), of Iran during the Safavid–Qajar periods (1502–1925), and of the Indian subcontinent throughout the Mughal era (1526–1857), which blended Islamic and Hindu cultural elements"Unquote.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Below Jarmakee ...The peculiar position for firing at targets directly below...from a fort wall.

The archer in blue on a black horse is Ottoman firing directly behind him.

See https://www.google.com/search?q=turk...M361TX6vGa6hM:

The bigger picture shows a mounted Mongolian Archer...

The Indo Persian bow picture and write up can be seen at https://www.pinterest.com/pin/363243526177126131/

Hi Ibrahiim

Thanks for your input. Yes, I think I will make a study of Asian & Islamic archery, it seems interesting. Was the bow and arrow ever used in Arabia ?

Regards

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Was the bow and arrow ever used in Arabia ?

Regards

Colin, check out this link. https://www.archerylibrary.com/books.../arab-archery/
Downloadable PDF http://www.freepdf.info/index.php?post/Arab-Archery



Authors : Faris Nabih Amin - Elmer Robert Potter
Title : Arab Archery An Arabic manuscript of about A.D. 1500 “Book on the Excellence of the Bow and Arrow” and the Description thereof.

Introduction. This unique manuscript, discovered in the Garrett Collection of Arabic Manuscripts at Princeton University Library, is the only known treatise available in English on the archery of the medieval Orient. It is considered by Dr. Faris and Dr. Elmer as equal in merit to the nearly contemporary Toxophilus, or the Schole of Shootynge, the chief source of detailed knowledge of early English archery. The manuscript could be used today as a textbook on archery, and is valuable to all students of Arab history and culture and to philologists in a number of fields. One of its most unusual contributions is its resurrection of an ancient system of finger-reckoning—the ancient Arabic system of conveying numerical values by a highly developed sign language involving the use of only a single hand. Though scholars have suspected that such a medium once existed, its details were completely lost. By its delicate and accurately formed manual postures it is sharply differentiated from the crude gestures which indicate "the nine digits" and some of their more simple combinations by holding up an equal number of fingers. Each of these rediscovered combinations, used to represent draws of the bow, is illustrated by a sketch. Another interesting contribution is the solution of the "double nock" problem which has hitherto been one of the most controversial puzzles in archery.






I am not sure how accurate this image is but it appears to be an Arabian archer.

THE VINKHUIJZEN COLLECTION OF MILITARY UNIFORMS
Spain, 1213-1488, Moros Alfaraces... ([Año] 1410).

[estcrh]

Treaty of the military art Mamelouk, containing the schools of platoon, rider, infantryman, archer and crossbowman. A large number of colored and rather well-drawn figures are inserted in the text. Like all Arab works on the same subject, this treatise contains a large number of technical terms and terms of command.

Beginning: الحمد لله ذى العظمة المتعالى بالقدرة عن الصفات و الامثال. This ms. Was executed in 875 of the Hegira (1470 AD), for a great personage of the court of the Sultans Mameluk, whose name was carefully removed from the frontispiece, which is very ornate. However, the last words contained in the central medallion, namely: عزه الله تعالى, which indicates that the last name was that of a sultan. Gold, The ruler of Egypt at that time was Qaitbai. Between the folios currently rated 1 and 2, several sheets are missing.