For discusion

[danny1976]

Hello,

I put this keris up for coment and discusion to learn.
I bought it from a older collector , this keris was in his collection for a long time
but i like to hear what are the meanings of other,s ?
Of course there is a waraka and hilt for this blade but i wan,t the focus on the blade .
Dapur Petut Kembar
Age Pajajaran Segaluh ????

Al coments are welcome.

[kai]

Hello Danny,

Please post the fittings later on!

Age Pajajaran Segaluh ????

Much younger, I'd guess. Hope the more knowlegdeable members will join in here though...

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

This is a good blade to look at and learn.

I'm not going to give my opinion here, lets see who can work it out.

[Gustav]

Looks like a reworked (chisel marks and allocation of rust pittings on the back side putut) huge (Tuban?) blade.

Yet I don't understand, how the front side Putut is done. Was this a sort of Kebo, or is it welded on?

[PenangsangII]

it looks like tangguh Tuban-Padjajaran based from the pics

[tunggulametung]

In my humble knowledge, although possible and example may exist, contrary to western believe that many putut and other blade with character carving are rework pieces, they simply are not.

Not likely a 16 c./older in my opinion. I would conservatively date the first half of 20c.

Would like to learn the philosophy behind dapur Putut as well (also similar dapur like Semar Pethak) and how long they have been around.

[Sajen]

Hello all,

like I write Danny by e-mail yesterday I am the opinion that this is a reworked blade. The characters are to sharp at the edges. I have asked Danny if the characters are thicker as the blade byself, I think that this is a good first indication. The front figure is thicker so I think it is welded on like Gustav assumed. I may be wrong but this is the impression I get by the pictures.

I don't want to foreclose that this is like Chandra write a blade from the first half of the 20th century.

Attached a picture of one from my putut blades which is genuine (I think and hope ) for comparison.

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

it looks like tangguh Tuban-Padjajaran based from the pics

I think it would be very helpful to the forum members if you could actually explain the clues and factors that you used to determine the tangguh of this keris from this set of photographs.

[danny1976]

Hi guys ,

Everybody thanks for joining in the discusion.
I realy have no idea if the blade is a reworked keris , i only strong have the feeling that the blade is old , when i look to te collor and the structure of the iron. ofcourse it can stil be reworked .

Kai was asking for the dress , i think it has no use to show it , it,s made for the keris and ofcourse younger .

Detlef , yes we talked about it by email. one petut is a little thicker and one side almost the same thicknes as the blade . The edges are sharp, but i know keris here in collections in Holland that can be proven to be old but stil have sharp greneng,s and almost no wear on the blade , so...

I can make aditionel pictures when needed , this wil be a intresting discusion
to learn !

[A. G. Maisey]

Has anybody noted the weld pattern in the sorsoran?

[drdavid]

Do you mean this area I have outlined (rather badly) Alan or just the area between the figure on the left side and the blade
Drdavid

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes David that is exactly what I mean, plus the other border of the same material that is above it. Effectively we're looking at an added piece of material.

[danny1976]

So, can we think that the blade had one petut and that they put a second one
from a other blade on the other side ?

Or did the reshaped it and aded the two petuts ?

[drdavid]

Hi Danny
looks like a large piece of metal has been welded in at some stage. I suspect by the shape that both petuts are later additions. They are not particularly elegantly done. The gonjo is not too convincing either, especially when you look at the relationship to the gandik. I also suspect that the blade profile has been 'adjusted' at some stage. Just my opinion though, i am a novice
drdavid

[A. G. Maisey]

My feeling about this blade is as follows, and it has my usual qualifications that if I had the blade in my hand I could alter what I have said, but in this case, not by too much.

I believe that this keris started life as a big, old Tuban blade.

A piece was cut from the point end of the blade and fire welded across the sorsoran.The existing gandik would have been incorporated into this weld.

The two puthut figures were carved from the added material, the blade profile was reshaped, and the gonjo reduced to fit.

The alteration of ordinary old blades to turn them into something more attractive from a commercial point of view seems to have been a very long standing practice in Jawa. My guess is that it goes back to the early part of the 19th century.

David, for a novice your guess was pretty good.Possibly demonstrates that most medicos are skilled observers.

[danny1976]

Everyone thank you for joining in the discusion !!
Ofcourse after this discusion i.m less happy with the blade

[tunggulametung]

Originally Posted by danny1976

Ofcourse after this discusion i.m less happy with the blade

Why? I hope it is not because of my comment.

[David]

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Why? I hope it is not because of my comment.

Actually i would venture to say that it is more probably everyone else's comments. I don't think it is the age of this piece that is disappointing, but rather that it is a reworked keris and the putut is not original.
Frankly, counter to your assertion, i have very rarely seen a keris putut that was not in fact a reworked blade or a contemporary artificially aged piece.

[danny1976]

@ tunggulametung.

No..No not because of youre comment

Indeed as david says , because it is not a original petut blade , that was my hope

[tunggulametung]

In regard with rework matter, I limit my novice understanding as per below (unless anyone else suggest otherwise):
Original putut: intended and made from scratch up to finish as dapur putut
Not original: Has been spent sometime or even very long time as other dapur, then from that point reworked as putut.

+ If reworked for non economic purpose, i.e. esoteric purpose/initiated by the owner that may qualify original in some degree, but generally I don't think people went this far, I mean if someone want putut blade they can buy one, as simple as that
+ does not count how rough/refined the finish/details

Me too, most putut that I've seen so far are in my opinion recent made or those made to looks older then it was, but not reworked pieces as I can tell.

In short someone need a good reason to rework a blade where ready to purchase original putut blade as per above is abundance. For dealer/keris maker, the expected selling price is just the same I guess. Rework piece cost somewhat double because you need to invest time, effort and money on the blade itself, rewelding it, recarving it and finally perhaps new dress.

@ danny1967: the blade may not refined alright (sorry) but you have the blade with you so you can make more appropriate observation. I cannot see the additional welding as Alan and drdavid suggest from the photos (to me it looks like the normal or regular welding pattern) but maybe it is just me. Unperfect fit on gonjo line may come from previously removed rust as a factor, or worsened by that factor.

By the way I'm curious what forum member think about what makes a good putut and what not.

My two cents opinion

[danny1976]

To set something right ...

I.m happy with al the coments because it is a good learning proces for
collecting and sometimes it wil mean to get negative critic , so be it

@tunggulametung.
Yes i did observe the blade and the ''welded piece'' is only vissible
on one side of the blade . I did take a risk by purchasing this keris
and that is why i wrote ..i,m less happy with the blade , not because of the critic but because me buying it

regards,

[A. G. Maisey]

When we consider the reworking of blades for economic reasons we need to realise that the keris market in Indonesia, especially in Jawa has not always been as it is now.

In today's economic environment I believe that it is absolutely certain that nobody would spend the time, effort and money to take an old blade and totally rework it to produce a crude attempt at falsification.

However, things have not always been as they are now.

During the 1960's and 1970's the economic situation for ordinary people living in Indonesia was dire.

Going back before the 1950's we had a period of turmoil, and before that we had the colonial period.

During the colonial period a European demand for the unusual in keris arose, and at the same time, colonial policies ensured a depressed standard of living for native Javanese. We may look back upon this time as a golden period. Maybe it was for Europeans, but I can still recall the photos I have seen of the entrance to a public garden in the hills behind Malang in East Jawa. A sign at the entrance read (translated) " DOGS AND JAVANESE ARE FORBIDDEN ENTRY". Those photos were taken in the 1930's.

The point I am trying to make is that prior to the revival of keris culture that occurred in the late 1970's and early 1980's, it was well worth the effort for people in Jawa to alter an old , ordinary keris to make it more valuable.

Prior to the revival of keris culture in Jawa, keris prices outside Indonesia were relatively high and keris outside Indonesia were relatively rare.

When I began collecting in the 1950's , a respectable keris, a respectable Indo-Persian piece, and a respectable Japanese sword all sold for around the same price.

Prior to 1967 the highest price ever paid at auction in the UK for an Oriental Dagger was achieved at Christies for a Balinese keris. This price was equivalent to $US2940 at that time.

This high level of comparative value for keris was the primary driver in the production of deliberate forgeries.

Quite frankly, I get sick and tired of the continually recurring comments of many collectors about fakes and forgeries and reproductions and tourist keris in today's market.

Mostly these collectors confuse current era keris production with that which is not genuine. Certainly there are keris which are not genuine, but the current era out and out forgeries are seldom seen by collectors in the western world for the simple reason that western collectors do not buy in the very high market level that good present day forgeries occupy.

Present day production of keris is 99% directed at the local market in Indonesia, not at the very few people who have an interest in keris in the world outside Indonesia.

And the same applies to present day forgeries. A good forger no longer wants a few dollars for his work. He wants what the genuine article will sell for, and that means tens of thousands of dollars. Today's forgers do not waste time by producing keris that western collectors will buy, they shoot for the top of the market, and that is in Indonesia.

To see the genuine forgeries in keris we need to look at an earlier era.

We need to look at a time when the artisans of Jawa still possessed the skills which permitted the extremely delicate fire welding that a good blade alteration demands. I doubt that it would be possible today to find a smith in Jawa today who could fire weld with the delicacy needed to take the very thin piece of metal taken from the tip of a big , old, Tuban blade and attach it to the sorsoran to permit a singo barong, or a puthut to be carved. Nor could we find people today who have the necessary skills and necessary need, to put the time into altering an old blade to make it an even halfway convincing forgery. The last man whom I knew who was capable of this died about ten years ago, and he was well into his eighties when he went.

In my core collection I have keris which are definite alterations. In my opinion these are very, very collectible pieces, as when they are old, well done alterations they represent a level of skill that no longer exists.

This keris of Danny's is in my opinion most definitely an altered keris. It is not the best altered keris I have ever seen, but it is certainly not bad, and in my opinion is well worth keeping as a part of any truly representative collection.

[BluErf]

Thanks Alan for sharing a good perspective into the reason why such reworked kerises were made and their relevance in today's market condition. Adds a valuable dimension to the overly simplistic "genuine-forgery" view towards collecting kerises.

[BluErf]

Apart from that, I'm also interested in seeing what an original keris puthut (perhaps photos from a museum) looks like, if anyone is willing to share.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Apart from that, I'm also interested in seeing what an original keris puthut (perhaps photos from a museum) looks like, if anyone is willing to share.

Hello Kai Wee,

This is my keris puthut and I am pretty sure that it is an original old one. Here some pictures from it. It is also a pichit keris, I hope it is clearly to seen by the pictures. Would be interesting how you call a keris like this.

Best regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

This morning I have recieved a PM from one of our esteemed members.

This PM requested me to consider the removal of some of the text in a previous post. The text that the writer of the PM apparently found offensive was my translation of a sign that had stood at the entrance of a public garden in East Jawa during the 1930's.

It has occurred to me that failure to understand the context of my writing could generate offense in somebody who is not a native English speaker.

Please permit me to clarify this passage:-


During the colonial period a European demand for the unusual in keris arose, and at the same time, colonial policies ensured a depressed standard of living for native Javanese. We may look back upon this time as a golden period. Maybe it was for Europeans, but I can still recall the photos I have seen of the entrance to a public garden in the hills behind Malang in East Jawa. A sign at the entrance read (translated) " DOGS AND JAVANESE ARE FORBIDDEN ENTRY". Those photos were taken in the 1930's.


This translation is necessary to demonstrate to those who have no understanding of the situation in Jawa during colonial times of just exactly how the Javanese of the working classes were treated and regarded during those times.

This translation is in fact a condemnation of the colonial attitude, it is most definitely not a slight directed at the people of Jawa.

Too often Europeans and other people from western cultures who have only a cursory knowledge of Jawa will read a few early travel books and they gain the opinion that Jawa during the colonial times was paradise on earth. I have had people who had lived and worked in Jawa prior to the Japanese occupation, say as much to me.

However, this view of Jawa fails to acknowledge the plight of the pribumi upon whose backs the Dutch colonialists and their Chinese overseers rode.

I have had other people who have noted the failures of the new nation of Indonesia comment to me upon the stupidity of the pribumi in wanting to have their own nation, and to govern themselves when in fact they were little better than children, and would have been better off if they had retained the Dutch to guide and to manage them.

This flawed opinion fails to acknowledge that in colonial Jawa the working class people of Jawa were regarded as something less than human beings.

All people have the desire of self determination and to manage their own affairs.

This desire was denied the people of Jawa when they were under the colonial heel.

It is only by attempting to understand the attitude of the colonialists that we can understand the powerful forces that drove the people of the old Dutch East Indies to fight for their freedom from European domination.

The actual language in which the original sign is couched is precisely in line with signs which we can find today in Central Jawa, such as :- "Anjing2 boleh kencing disini" ( Dogs may urinate here) atau "Hanya anjing kencing disini" (Only a dog will urinate here). Walk around the market areas of Central Jawa towns and you will find an abundance of these signs --- signs which have been produced by Javanese people, for Javanese people.

[BluErf]

During the colonial era, there was a similar sign put up at the entrance of a park in Shanghai, China. It said "Chinese and dogs are not allowed in the park". This was told to me and fellow tour group members by a tour guide who brought us to the park. I was about ten years old then, but it left a very deep impression on me.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Apart from that, I'm also interested in seeing what an original keris puthut (perhaps photos from a museum) looks like, if anyone is willing to share.

Pictures courtesy of pak Ganjawulung. Taken from National Museum, Jakarta.

Featured with a Banten styled sheath, a keris estimated to be from the Pajajaran period, with dapur Puthut Kembar. Believed to be the property of Sultan Muhyi of Banten, with its unique hilt, probably made from horn.

[semar]

petut

[BluErf]

Thanks all for sharing. Thanks to Ganjawulung too for sharing pics of that fantastic Banten keris. I love the sheath tremendously!