Moro or Kalimantan ?

paolo · 18th February 2007, 06:37 PM

Hi all,
This piece comes from a private Dutch family; The weapon was confiscated by the Japanese during the Sumatra occupation in WWII. I need Your opinion about its origin. Moro or Kalimantan ?

Battara · 20th February 2007, 02:18 AM

I would lean more toward Kalimantan, especially based on the blade fullers, the "trunk" area, and the chiseling at the base of the blade.

kai · 20th February 2007, 11:10 PM

Hello Paolo,

I remember that one - nice catch!

Are there any indications that the elephant's trunk broke off?

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 21st February 2007, 02:26 AM

You know, Kai, that is a good question - missed that one.

paolo · 21st February 2007, 01:43 PM

Hi Kai,
To me the elephant's trunk seems intact.
Regards
Paolo

VVV · 21st February 2007, 03:27 PM

I have noticed that quite often swords that don’t look like "they should" per default gets labelled Borneo. On this forum it has happened several times to especially odd-looking Kampilan and Kris.
Alan Maisey once told me that he has experienced the same regarding unusual-looking Keris. The difference is that the Malays in coastal south Borneo actually produced Keris. But not with such a great variation of strange styles as sometimes is suggested.

As far as I have seen, and read, nobody has actually been able to prove that there really exists a special "Borneo look" to f.i. the Kris and the Kampilan?
None of them are indigenous Borneo weapons and were used by the immigrated, non-Dayak, Malay or Moro tribes.
I have tried to find proof in old sources of Kris being produced in Borneo.
But so far I have only found out that they were imported from mostly the Sulu Sultanate.

If somebody knows a good source as proof that this isn't the cause I would be happy if you could share it?

Michael

Ian · 21st February 2007, 04:10 PM

Michael:

If one includes the Brunei Sultanate as part of Borneo, and indeed part of the "Moro" community, then the answer to your question is yes.

Ian.

VVV · 21st February 2007, 04:27 PM

Ian,

Do you mean that there is proof of a special "Brunei look" in Kris that is different from f.i. the Sulu Kris or Malay Sundang?

Michael

Alam Shah · 21st February 2007, 04:31 PM

Afaik, by the middle of the 15th century, during its 'golden age', Brunei had started to expand. The sultanate's control extended over the coastal regions of modern-day Sarawak and Sabah, the Sulu archipelago, and the islands off the northwest tip of Borneo. Keris were manufactured and kris imported from the Sulu regions.

Some useful references:

The Phillippine Islands: Explorations by Early Navigators, Descriptions of the Islands and their People, their History and Records of the Catholics Missions, as related in contemporaneous Books and Manuscripts. Vol. IV-1576-1582. Eds. Emma Helen Blair and James Alexander Robertson. Cleveland: The Arthur H. Clark Company, 1903.

Ongkili, James P. "Ancient Chinese Trading Links." East Malaysia and Brunei. Ed. Wendy Hutton. Tuttle Publishing, 2001.

Saunders, Graham. A History of Brunei. London and New York: RoutledgeCurzon, 2002.

Wright, Leigh. "Brunei: An Historical Relic." Journal of the Hong Kong Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society. Vol. 17 (1977).

VVV · 21st February 2007, 05:56 PM

Thanks Shahrial for the references.

Obviously I have to study Brunei better instead of focusing on the other Borneo regions.

Do I understand you correct that your listed sources states that it was only Keris that were produced in Brunei and that the Kris were imported from the Sulu archipelago?
Or do they state that Kris also were produced in Brunei?

If so, is there a special Brunei style of Kris with characteristic features?

Michael

Bill · 21st February 2007, 07:09 PM

"The Keris Sulok or Sundang" by E. Banks has been discussed in the past. While he doubts the keris was made by Bornean Malays he states the Sulok/Sundang "certainly" was made in Brunei for a time. There you go back to the common sense problem of explaining how smiths that never made the keris come up with Cato's "18thC" kris, a sword with remarkable workmanship. Although I haven't see any accurate discription of the swords, early western explorers were impressed with arms of early Brunei.

VVV · 21st February 2007, 08:47 PM

Thanks Bill,

I have always assumed that Keris Sulok means Sulu Kris?

But obviously, according to Banks 1940, he was told that they were once made in Brunei also.
Still, looking at the picture in the article, it seems as if it was the Sulu Kris being made there and not a Borneo, or Brunei, Kris?
And at least one of the Kris in the picture seems to be Maranao (maybe imported)?

Michael

Alam Shah · 22nd February 2007, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

...There you go back to the common sense problem of explaining how smiths that never made the keris come up with Cato's "18thC" kris, a sword with remarkable workmanship. Although I haven't see any accurate discription of the swords, early western explorers were impressed with arms of early Brunei.

Could it be a smith who migrated to these area, from Sulu or Mindanao?

In the Asian Civilisation Museum, Singapore, there is a sundang which is attributed to Brunei. It is of fine worksmanship as well.

Rick · 22nd February 2007, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Could it be a smith who migrated to these area, from Sulu or Mindanao?

In the Asian Civilisation Museum, Singapore, there is a sundang which is attributed to Brunei. It is of fine worksmanship as well.

Yes, a smith who's ancestors may have been Madurese .

Alam Shah · 22nd February 2007, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

...Do you mean that there is proof of a special "Brunei look" in Kris that is different from f.i. the Sulu Kris or Malay Sundang?
Michael

Afaik, I haven't seen any typical 'Brunei look' for Kris, but based on the one at Asian Civilisation Museum's, it leans more toward Sulu archetype. Some samples could be found in Frey's The Kris (3rd Ed), in the Kris Archives.

Alam Shah · 22nd February 2007, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Yes, a smith who's ancestors may have been Madurese .

How's that, Rick?

Bill · 22nd February 2007, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Yes, a smith who's ancestors may have been Madurese .

I think everyone visited Brunei. "a Sketch of the History of Brunei" by Hughes-Hallett admits the history is lacking considering it was once a important trade center and powerful kingdom. Chinese coins dating to 600 BC were found in the mouth of the Sarawak river. Oral tradition says royal families had both Chinese and Javanese blood. Early westerners were surprised at the amount of Chinese, Arab and Bugis. Certainly after 1669 the "Bugis Diaspora" had large Bugis migration. Also in the 17thC, the Sultan of Sulu was involved in a Brunei civil war and was awarded large territories in North Borneo.

Rick · 22nd February 2007, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

How's that, Rick?

Shahrial,
Don't you think that Madurese and Javanese smiths and their far flung descendants have spread pamor and smithing techniques and influences throughout the world of the keris/kris over the centuries ?

Alam Shah · 22nd February 2007, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

... Don't you think that Madurese and Javanese smiths and their far flung descendants have spread pamor and smithing techniques and influences throughout the world of the keris/kris over the centuries ?

Ah... yes... I believe they do.

But you only mentioned Maduranese...

hence the ?

Need to research more on Brunei keris/kris.

There is a book "Keris : peranannya dalam masyarakat Melayu Brunei".
(Translated = Keris: its role in the Brunei Malay community.)
Author: Haji Hashim B. Haji Mohd Noor.
Publisher: Berakas, Negara Brunei Darussalam : Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka Brunei, Kementerian Kebudayaan, Belia dan Sukan, 2004.

Comments: It's a research article on the Brunei keris, written in Malay. There are pictures of keris with Brunei influence, brunei styles, local terms used, materials and interviews with the 'pandai besi' and kerismakers.

VVV · 23rd February 2007, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Comments: It's a research article on the Brunei keris, written in Malay. There are pictures of keris with Brunei influence, brunei styles, local terms used, materials and interviews with the 'pandai besi' and kerismakers.

Interesting,

Is it only keris or do they also have examples of kris that differs from those of other regions?
If so, could you share any of the pictures?

Michael

Alam Shah · 24th February 2007, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

... Is it only keris or do they also have examples of kris that differs from those of other regions? If so, could you share any of the pictures?...

I don't have pictures of it, as I do not own a copy of the book. I've read it in the library's reference section, but unfortunately not available for
borrowing, hence I cannot make a copy.

I'll check it out and let you know when I can.

paolo · 24th February 2007, 01:23 PM

I'haven't Your knowlege about keris, and I didn't read most of the books You mentioned, but on page 16 of the Van Zonneveld book (traditional weapons of the Indonesian archipelago) there's a pic of a Kalimantan keris, acquired in 1893, that looks very interesting to me.
Regards
Paolo

VVV · 26th February 2007, 05:13 PM

Yes, it looks interesting.
AFAIK the swords in the van Z book is attributed according to collection area, not where they were made.

Michael

18th February 2007, 06:37 PM	#1
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	Moro or Kalimantan ? Hi all, This piece comes from a private Dutch family; The weapon was confiscated by the Japanese during the Sumatra occupation in WWII. I need Your opinion about its origin. Moro or Kalimantan ? Attached Images

21st February 2007, 03:27 PM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	The wild swords from Borneo I have noticed that quite often swords that don’t look like "they should" per default gets labelled Borneo. On this forum it has happened several times to especially odd-looking Kampilan and Kris. Alan Maisey once told me that he has experienced the same regarding unusual-looking Keris. The difference is that the Malays in coastal south Borneo actually produced Keris. But not with such a great variation of strange styles as sometimes is suggested. As far as I have seen, and read, nobody has actually been able to prove that there really exists a special "Borneo look" to f.i. the Kris and the Kampilan? None of them are indigenous Borneo weapons and were used by the immigrated, non-Dayak, Malay or Moro tribes. I have tried to find proof in old sources of Kris being produced in Borneo. But so far I have only found out that they were imported from mostly the Sulu Sultanate. If somebody knows a good source as proof that this isn't the cause I would be happy if you could share it? Michael

21st February 2007, 04:10 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Moro weapons and Brunei Sultanate Michael: If one includes the Brunei Sultanate as part of Borneo, and indeed part of the "Moro" community, then the answer to your question is yes. Ian.

21st February 2007, 04:31 PM	#9
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Sources... Afaik, by the middle of the 15th century, during its 'golden age', Brunei had started to expand. The sultanate's control extended over the coastal regions of modern-day Sarawak and Sabah, the Sulu archipelago, and the islands off the northwest tip of Borneo. Keris were manufactured and kris imported from the Sulu regions. Some useful references: The Phillippine Islands: Explorations by Early Navigators, Descriptions of the Islands and their People, their History and Records of the Catholics Missions, as related in contemporaneous Books and Manuscripts. Vol. IV-1576-1582. Eds. Emma Helen Blair and James Alexander Robertson. Cleveland: The Arthur H. Clark Company, 1903. Ongkili, James P. "Ancient Chinese Trading Links." East Malaysia and Brunei. Ed. Wendy Hutton. Tuttle Publishing, 2001. Saunders, Graham. A History of Brunei. London and New York: RoutledgeCurzon, 2002. Wright, Leigh. "Brunei: An Historical Relic." Journal of the Hong Kong Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society. Vol. 17 (1977). Last edited by Alam Shah; 21st February 2007 at 05:01 PM.

24th February 2007, 01:23 PM	#22
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	I'haven't Your knowlege about keris, and I didn't read most of the books You mentioned, but on page 16 of the Van Zonneveld book (traditional weapons of the Indonesian archipelago) there's a pic of a Kalimantan keris, acquired in 1893, that looks very interesting to me. Regards Paolo Attached Images

20th February 2007, 02:18 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	I would lean more toward Kalimantan, especially based on the blade fullers, the "trunk" area, and the chiseling at the base of the blade.

20th February 2007, 11:10 PM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Paolo, I remember that one - nice catch! Are there any indications that the elephant's trunk broke off? Regards, Kai

21st February 2007, 02:26 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	You know, Kai, that is a good question - missed that one.

21st February 2007, 01:43 PM	#5
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	Hi Kai, To me the elephant's trunk seems intact. Regards Paolo

21st February 2007, 04:27 PM	#8
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Ian, Do you mean that there is proof of a special "Brunei look" in Kris that is different from f.i. the Sulu Kris or Malay Sundang? Michael

21st February 2007, 05:56 PM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Shahrial for the references. Obviously I have to study Brunei better instead of focusing on the other Borneo regions. Do I understand you correct that your listed sources states that it was only Keris that were produced in Brunei and that the Kris were imported from the Sulu archipelago? Or do they state that Kris also were produced in Brunei? If so, is there a special Brunei style of Kris with characteristic features? Michael

21st February 2007, 07:09 PM	#11
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	"The Keris Sulok or Sundang" by E. Banks has been discussed in the past. While he doubts the keris was made by Bornean Malays he states the Sulok/Sundang "certainly" was made in Brunei for a time. There you go back to the common sense problem of explaining how smiths that never made the keris come up with Cato's "18thC" kris, a sword with remarkable workmanship. Although I haven't see any accurate discription of the swords, early western explorers were impressed with arms of early Brunei.

21st February 2007, 08:47 PM	#12
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Bill, I have always assumed that Keris Sulok means Sulu Kris? But obviously, according to Banks 1940, he was told that they were once made in Brunei also. Still, looking at the picture in the article, it seems as if it was the Sulu Kris being made there and not a Borneo, or Brunei, Kris? And at least one of the Kris in the picture seems to be Maranao (maybe imported)? Michael

26th February 2007, 05:13 PM	#23
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Yes, it looks interesting. AFAIK the swords in the van Z book is attributed according to collection area, not where they were made. Michael