A blade for coments; old, early, or very early

fernando · 29th July 2010, 01:50 AM

The pictures are lousy, but i couldn't wait to show this one.
Found (coincidently?) near the ruimns of a Roman citania (settlement), in northern Portugal.
Blade 27,5 cms (7 3/4"), hilt (tang) 13,5 cms (5 1/4").
Quite a long tang; could it have a large pomel or hilt, to 'consume' some of its length?
The guy who acquired it thought he better clean it, as it was completely envolved in rust; but i reckon (and told him) he nearly reached the reasonable limit.
What do you guys think this is; something weapon like and seriously old ... even early?
Would better pictures be vital?
Fernando

.

Lee · 29th July 2010, 05:38 PM

The form is unfamiliar to me, so I have been leafing through the library, perhaps with some success. The full length tang, tang button and the blade widening in its distal half are all somewhat unusual features.

Dr. Hoffmeyer shows a similar form of blade in Arms & Armour in Spain on p. 85 of v. 1 that was found in the Visigothic necropolis at Simancas (now in a museum at Valladolid) and identifies these as a particular knife-dagger form worn by Hispano-Romans in the 4th to 5th centuries. She notes also that it "is difficult to find parallels to this type in other regions."

Considering the find place, I greatly favor this attribution over a worn down medieval working knife on which the long tang would be very much less expected - so, a very nice find indeed!

I have included the drawing from Dr. Hoffmeyer below:

Matchlock · 29th July 2010, 06:53 PM

Hi Fernando,

The little nail-head shaped pommel reminds me of Roman or Celtic swords and daggers. Apart from that I agree with Lee's arguments.

Best,
Michl

Matchlock · 29th July 2010, 07:53 PM

Hi 'Nando,

The small, nail-head shaped pommel reminds me of Celtic swords and daggers.

Best,
Michl

Lee · 29th July 2010, 11:02 PM

Continuing to ponder...

Unfortunately, the "belly" of the this blade is in the wrong place compared with Dr. Hoffmeyer's examples, which are also relatively wider, as may be noted in the superimposed image below.

I agree with Matchlock's impression of the tang button, I have exactly the same gestalt. This full tang with retaining button points either to something early (and possibly related to the knife daggers illustrated above) or something much more recent (18th century?). Considering the find place and the appearance of the corrosive attack upon the metal, I favor the late Roman attribution over a worn down peasant's working knife, but then, I am a romantic.

Though I continue to peruse, I fear that my library will fail to provide more examples, but that is the remaining task, to find if the Hispano-Roman form also includes examples from a known context with the "belly" more towards the tip...

fernando · 30th July 2010, 04:56 PM

It was great to hear your coments on this piece, Gentlemen.
I am much obliged for the sharing of Dr. Hoffmeyer's drawings, as well as your personal considerations, Lee.
I see that the identifying and dating of this knife is still to be narrowed to a determined typology and time span.
If i well understand, for the time being, i must accommodate its probabilities to a universe starting by a less probable Hispano-Roman knife dagger, followed by the more potential late Roman tool weapon, and ending in a much less viable but academicaly admitable XVII-XVIII century peasant's knife.
... This without excluding its Celtic touch pommel shape.
Curiously and, until further knowledge in the subject, it appears that all these peoples have been around the area, so we can not refine this knife ID with this method.
It seems as i will have to check on these civilizations and, perhaps, pay a visit to a nearby museum 'specialized' in early settlements artifacts, to check whether they recognize its 'advanced' belly shape.
Thank you once again.
Fernando

M ELEY · 1st August 2010, 08:14 AM

Awesome piece, Fernando! I envy your location, as you always seem to turn up such great examples (still enjoying that 4lb cannonball you sold me

). From Lee's pics, I think it still could be Hispano-Roman. The examples shown swell a little more towards the mid-point, but yours definately has the same wedge shape near the end of the blade. This isn't my area, so I'll ask a dumb question as to whether later Roman knives possessed this unique blade shape such as yours? In any case, a great piece worthy of any collection.

fernando · 1st August 2010, 08:33 PM

Thanks for the kind words, Captain Mark

.
Concerning the blade curve ...
I wouldn't have the necessary scholar background to use this as an actual reference, but i have been browsing on the famous Iberian Falcata, a sword used between V and I century BC, resembling the Etruscan Machaira called Kopis, or even the Nepalese Kukri, which has the blade 'belly' towards the tip, although in another shape context.
There is also a contemporaneous shorter version of the falcata, called Faca Afalcatada ... sort of "falcatized knife", also with the same blade swell.
Obviously the hilts of the falcata pattern have nothing to do with that of this knife. This is only to note that the curve in the blade front is not totally uncommon, while wondering if one descends from the other.
I assume i am far from being able to even try and attribute the origin of this dagger to one of the numerous peoples that have sequently inhabited these areas.
While Iberians were first around, with their falcatas, they tended to settle more to thre south and east from the settlement where this dagger was found, but falcatas were quite spread and some specimens were found not far from there.
However the Celts, who originated the Gaelic tribes, have surely inhabited this place. This could explain the tang pommel shape, as suggested by Matchlock.
Later this settlement, as many oters, was romanized, having the Romans fortified it with a triple wall.
One thing also taken for granted was the later occupation by the Germanic Visigods in this settlement, acording to their technique being noted in some ceramic findings, so i have read. These have replaced the Roman domination, having controlled Hispania between 418 and 711, date of the Muslim invasion.
Note that Hispania was the name given by the Romans to the whole Peninsula, Portugal included.
In my limited knowledge, i wouldn't know of Roman knives or daggers with a curved blade. Also apparently the way the tang is locked by a button doesn't appear to be Roman, but rather a Celtic detail, as per Michl's impression supported by Lee.
So assuming this kinfe/dagger falls into this time span and without evidence of a documented smilar pecimen, we may as weel take a pick

.

Fernando

.

Dmitry · 2nd August 2010, 05:28 AM

Search the web for 'SEAX' or 'SCRAMASAX'.

fernando · 2nd August 2010, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Search the web for 'SEAX' or 'SCRAMASAX'.

Thanks for the hint.
That was the suggestion i first received, before this discussion went in other directions.
I have then checked on quite a few examples; none of the shape variations i saw seem to fit with with this blade, tang and all.

Dmitry · 2nd August 2010, 05:38 PM

My knowledge of these knives is cursory, but I would view the tang as a secondary characteristic. These knives were used from Norway to Italy, and from Russia to Spain; obviously there are many variations.

Dmitry · 3rd August 2010, 01:31 AM

Was browsing MAURICE MAINDRON - LES ARMES, pondering how bad my French really was, when I saw this seax. Looks quite similar to yours.

fernando · 3rd August 2010, 04:32 PM

Very interesting Dmitry ... thank you.
Amazingly and for the first time i see a similar tang and pommel, but the blade projection doesn't seem to belong to the same family ... to my eyes.
I find the book itself very interesting, also.
Have just ordered a copy.
Thanks again for your interest.

Bryan.H · 6th August 2010, 08:28 PM

Greetings Fernando,

The blade shape and profile reminded me of a blade I'd seen some time ago, but a modern military knife. I can't help thinking that the blade shape may be historically featured on the Iberian peninsula and be a traditional shape very specific to a particular area. Aitor hunting knives have a stylistically similar blade shape also.

Here's the Spanish military knife I recalled..

Sorry I can't help further, just thinking out loud!

fernando · 6th August 2010, 08:38 PM

I see what you mean, Brian.
Thanks a lot for the hint

.

Dmitry · 7th August 2010, 02:48 AM

*

fernando · 7th August 2010, 02:11 PM

Quite distant ... i would say

.

Bryan.H · 7th August 2010, 02:51 PM

This blade still intrigues me, and I'd love to know it's precise archaeological context. Stratigraphy is crucial to dating this piece I think, as the land has more than likely been subject to human habitation and invasions and armed conflict from Romans to the armies of Wellington and Napoleon.

I found a reference to 4th Century roman knives, that are smaller than your example Fernando, however the tang and pommel/ tang button appear similar.

http://www.comitatus.net/Documents/R...Atkinson-2.pdf

These are from the Romano-british Lankhills cemetery.

For what it's worth, I struggle to see how the blade profile could eventuate from the grinding down or sharpening of a blade over a long period of time. It could well be a butchers knife of some antiquity, as even today, the length is comparable, the blade shape not so different (wider at the tip and broad), and the hand actions involved in butchering have not changed greatly over time..

Dmitry · 7th August 2010, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Quite distant ... i would say

.

Read post #11.

fernando · 7th August 2010, 04:41 PM

Hi Brian,
Thanks for the link.
Still the examples shown in the article, besides smaller in dimensions, do not coincide much with the shape of this thread's example.
As for stratigraphy, i wouldn't think it would play a role here.This item was in possession of a local peasant; therefore much more probably an open air finding than a digging. You are right in that the place has seen the presence of several human stock; more likely inhabited by the first ones and only serving as a route by the late.
Certainly Galicians, dominated by Romans, succeeded by Suevos, removed by Visigods, you name them.
There is a well preserved Sauna bath complex in the area, showing Roman evidence.
Wellington and Napolean (Soult) troops might also have been around, but probably using the area as a passage, less possibly using it as a battle field, much less as a residence.
Considering this blade continued sharpening, i understand such action would consume the blade in a more extensive area towards the front, thus not leaving such a pronounced belly near the tip, as also it would remain wider in the back end, therefore with a rather different configuration; this assuming, as you say, that sharpening techniques didn't change over time.
... Unless its cutting utility was not practiced by a conventional butcher ... as much early in time as butchers existed.
Mind you, i am not, by any means, qualified in metalurgy or any sort of scholarship close to this problematic, to reject your suggestion all the way.
We are just brainstorming here

.
Until a similar item shows up or/and a categoric ID is attributed, anything is possible

.
Fernando

fernando · 7th August 2010, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Read post #11.

Yes, i have read it before ... and now again.
You will pardon me but, there must be a rational limit for variations; otherwise anything may be similar to anything else.
Or, let's say that i admit not being keen enough to discern the familiarity with such variations .
Also i confess i am much influenced by some scholar who says that, the position of the tang, in relation to the blade, is a vital symptom.
... Like when the tang in centered with the blade means German (Visigod and other), and when it is projected from the back edge would be Iberian.
Hope you get my meaning

.

fernando · 23rd August 2010, 06:23 PM

A few days ago i have had a local opinion on this piece, which sounded fairly reasonable, as within not far from some of the impressions posted here, namely those from Lee: an utility knife of the afalcatado style, from the Ibero-Roman period.
Ibero-Roman appears to be a term preferred over here, in detriment of the Hispano-Roman attribution used abroad.
I guess that the afalcatado (falcata like) type should be interpreted in a broad sense.
Being its typology an issue that may still constitute a riddle, specialy being of peasant's manufacture, i will take its age range reiterated suggestion worthy of consideration ( I-V century AD).

29th July 2010, 05:38 PM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Hispano-Roman 4th to 5th century Knife-Dagger The form is unfamiliar to me, so I have been leafing through the library, perhaps with some success. The full length tang, tang button and the blade widening in its distal half are all somewhat unusual features. Dr. Hoffmeyer shows a similar form of blade in Arms & Armour in Spain on p. 85 of v. 1 that was found in the Visigothic necropolis at Simancas (now in a museum at Valladolid) and identifies these as a particular knife-dagger form worn by Hispano-Romans in the 4th to 5th centuries. She notes also that it "is difficult to find parallels to this type in other regions." Considering the find place, I greatly favor this attribution over a worn down medieval working knife on which the long tang would be very much less expected - so, a very nice find indeed! I have included the drawing from Dr. Hoffmeyer below: Attached Images

29th July 2010, 11:02 PM	#5
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Continuing to ponder... Continuing to ponder... Unfortunately, the "belly" of the this blade is in the wrong place compared with Dr. Hoffmeyer's examples, which are also relatively wider, as may be noted in the superimposed image below. I agree with Matchlock's impression of the tang button, I have exactly the same gestalt. This full tang with retaining button points either to something early (and possibly related to the knife daggers illustrated above) or something much more recent (18th century?). Considering the find place and the appearance of the corrosive attack upon the metal, I favor the late Roman attribution over a worn down peasant's working knife, but then, I am a romantic. Though I continue to peruse, I fear that my library will fail to provide more examples, but that is the remaining task, to find if the Hispano-Roman form also includes examples from a known context with the "belly" more towards the tip... Attached Images

1st August 2010, 08:33 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks for the kind words, Captain Mark . Concerning the blade curve ... I wouldn't have the necessary scholar background to use this as an actual reference, but i have been browsing on the famous Iberian Falcata, a sword used between V and I century BC, resembling the Etruscan Machaira called Kopis, or even the Nepalese Kukri, which has the blade 'belly' towards the tip, although in another shape context. There is also a contemporaneous shorter version of the falcata, called Faca Afalcatada ... sort of "falcatized knife", also with the same blade swell. Obviously the hilts of the falcata pattern have nothing to do with that of this knife. This is only to note that the curve in the blade front is not totally uncommon, while wondering if one descends from the other. I assume i am far from being able to even try and attribute the origin of this dagger to one of the numerous peoples that have sequently inhabited these areas. While Iberians were first around, with their falcatas, they tended to settle more to thre south and east from the settlement where this dagger was found, but falcatas were quite spread and some specimens were found not far from there. However the Celts, who originated the Gaelic tribes, have surely inhabited this place. This could explain the tang pommel shape, as suggested by Matchlock. Later this settlement, as many oters, was romanized, having the Romans fortified it with a triple wall. One thing also taken for granted was the later occupation by the Germanic Visigods in this settlement, acording to their technique being noted in some ceramic findings, so i have read. These have replaced the Roman domination, having controlled Hispania between 418 and 711, date of the Muslim invasion. Note that Hispania was the name given by the Romans to the whole Peninsula, Portugal included. In my limited knowledge, i wouldn't know of Roman knives or daggers with a curved blade. Also apparently the way the tang is locked by a button doesn't appear to be Roman, but rather a Celtic detail, as per Michl's impression supported by Lee. So assuming this kinfe/dagger falls into this time span and without evidence of a documented smilar pecimen, we may as weel take a pick . Fernando . Attached Images

3rd August 2010, 01:31 AM	#12
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Was browsing MAURICE MAINDRON - LES ARMES, pondering how bad my French really was, when I saw this seax. Looks quite similar to yours. Attached Images

7th August 2010, 02:48 AM	#16
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	* Attached Images

29th July 2010, 01:50 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A blade for coments; old, early, or very early The pictures are lousy, but i couldn't wait to show this one. Found (coincidently?) near the ruimns of a Roman citania (settlement), in northern Portugal. Blade 27,5 cms (7 3/4"), hilt (tang) 13,5 cms (5 1/4"). Quite a long tang; could it have a large pomel or hilt, to 'consume' some of its length? The guy who acquired it thought he better clean it, as it was completely envolved in rust; but i reckon (and told him) he nearly reached the reasonable limit. What do you guys think this is; something weapon like and seriously old ... even early? Would better pictures be vital? Fernando . Attached Images

29th July 2010, 06:53 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Fernando, The little nail-head shaped pommel reminds me of Roman or Celtic swords and daggers. Apart from that I agree with Lee's arguments. Best, Michl

29th July 2010, 07:53 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, The small, nail-head shaped pommel reminds me of Celtic swords and daggers. Best, Michl

30th July 2010, 04:56 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	It was great to hear your coments on this piece, Gentlemen. I am much obliged for the sharing of Dr. Hoffmeyer's drawings, as well as your personal considerations, Lee. I see that the identifying and dating of this knife is still to be narrowed to a determined typology and time span. If i well understand, for the time being, i must accommodate its probabilities to a universe starting by a less probable Hispano-Roman knife dagger, followed by the more potential late Roman tool weapon, and ending in a much less viable but academicaly admitable XVII-XVIII century peasant's knife. ... This without excluding its Celtic touch pommel shape. Curiously and, until further knowledge in the subject, it appears that all these peoples have been around the area, so we can not refine this knife ID with this method. It seems as i will have to check on these civilizations and, perhaps, pay a visit to a nearby museum 'specialized' in early settlements artifacts, to check whether they recognize its 'advanced' belly shape. Thank you once again. Fernando

1st August 2010, 08:14 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Awesome piece, Fernando! I envy your location, as you always seem to turn up such great examples (still enjoying that 4lb cannonball you sold me ). From Lee's pics, I think it still could be Hispano-Roman. The examples shown swell a little more towards the mid-point, but yours definately has the same wedge shape near the end of the blade. This isn't my area, so I'll ask a dumb question as to whether later Roman knives possessed this unique blade shape such as yours? In any case, a great piece worthy of any collection.

2nd August 2010, 05:28 AM	#9
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Search the web for 'SEAX' or 'SCRAMASAX'.

2nd August 2010, 05:38 PM	#11
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	My knowledge of these knives is cursory, but I would view the tang as a secondary characteristic. These knives were used from Norway to Italy, and from Russia to Spain; obviously there are many variations.

3rd August 2010, 04:32 PM	#13
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Very interesting Dmitry ... thank you. Amazingly and for the first time i see a similar tang and pommel, but the blade projection doesn't seem to belong to the same family ... to my eyes. I find the book itself very interesting, also. Have just ordered a copy. Thanks again for your interest.

6th August 2010, 08:28 PM	#14
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	Greetings Fernando, The blade shape and profile reminded me of a blade I'd seen some time ago, but a modern military knife. I can't help thinking that the blade shape may be historically featured on the Iberian peninsula and be a traditional shape very specific to a particular area. Aitor hunting knives have a stylistically similar blade shape also. Here's the Spanish military knife I recalled.. Sorry I can't help further, just thinking out loud!

6th August 2010, 08:38 PM	#15
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I see what you mean, Brian. Thanks a lot for the hint .

7th August 2010, 02:11 PM	#17
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Quite distant ... i would say . Attached Images

7th August 2010, 02:51 PM	#18
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	Possible Gallo-Roman reference? This blade still intrigues me, and I'd love to know it's precise archaeological context. Stratigraphy is crucial to dating this piece I think, as the land has more than likely been subject to human habitation and invasions and armed conflict from Romans to the armies of Wellington and Napoleon. I found a reference to 4th Century roman knives, that are smaller than your example Fernando, however the tang and pommel/ tang button appear similar. http://www.comitatus.net/Documents/R...Atkinson-2.pdf These are from the Romano-british Lankhills cemetery. For what it's worth, I struggle to see how the blade profile could eventuate from the grinding down or sharpening of a blade over a long period of time. It could well be a butchers knife of some antiquity, as even today, the length is comparable, the blade shape not so different (wider at the tip and broad), and the hand actions involved in butchering have not changed greatly over time..

7th August 2010, 04:41 PM	#20
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Brian, Thanks for the link. Still the examples shown in the article, besides smaller in dimensions, do not coincide much with the shape of this thread's example. As for stratigraphy, i wouldn't think it would play a role here.This item was in possession of a local peasant; therefore much more probably an open air finding than a digging. You are right in that the place has seen the presence of several human stock; more likely inhabited by the first ones and only serving as a route by the late. Certainly Galicians, dominated by Romans, succeeded by Suevos, removed by Visigods, you name them. There is a well preserved Sauna bath complex in the area, showing Roman evidence. Wellington and Napolean (Soult) troops might also have been around, but probably using the area as a passage, less possibly using it as a battle field, much less as a residence. Considering this blade continued sharpening, i understand such action would consume the blade in a more extensive area towards the front, thus not leaving such a pronounced belly near the tip, as also it would remain wider in the back end, therefore with a rather different configuration; this assuming, as you say, that sharpening techniques didn't change over time. ... Unless its cutting utility was not practiced by a conventional butcher ... as much early in time as butchers existed. Mind you, i am not, by any means, qualified in metalurgy or any sort of scholarship close to this problematic, to reject your suggestion all the way. We are just brainstorming here . Until a similar item shows up or/and a categoric ID is attributed, anything is possible . Fernando

23rd August 2010, 06:23 PM	#22
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A few days ago i have had a local opinion on this piece, which sounded fairly reasonable, as within not far from some of the impressions posted here, namely those from Lee: an utility knife of the afalcatado style, from the Ibero-Roman period. Ibero-Roman appears to be a term preferred over here, in detriment of the Hispano-Roman attribution used abroad. I guess that the afalcatado (falcata like) type should be interpreted in a broad sense. Being its typology an issue that may still constitute a riddle, specialy being of peasant's manufacture, i will take its age range reiterated suggestion worthy of consideration ( I-V century AD).