Hussar Sabre for comment

AHorsa · 3rd August 2014, 11:51 PM

Hello,

I have this sabre which might be dated short before or around 1800, but I have no idea about the geographical context of this peace. I know that this style was widely spread during that time, but maybe you have some idea tp precise its provenance. Sadly there are no markings etc. to find.

Best regards
Andi

ulfberth · 6th August 2014, 02:38 PM

Hi Andi,

it could be from one of the German state's or even Polisch or English.
In my opinion, from a german state from the Napoleonic era between 1790 and 1810 apr.
I had a similar sabre once, it had a leather scabbard with long pierced iron mountings.

kind regards

Dirk

AHorsa · 8th August 2014, 10:20 AM

Hi Ulfberth,

thanks for your answer. I also tend to say it might be from a german state. But it seems to be nearly impossible to classify it with certainty.

Best
Andi

ulfberth · 8th August 2014, 10:16 PM

like you said, with no stamps etc it is hard to be sure.
I remember one with a complete iron scabbard to of the german type, but to me the scabbard was from a later period after 1810.

kind regards

Dirk

Oliver Pinchot · 9th August 2014, 12:32 AM

Many years ago, my friend Jim McDougall taught me that while this type looks Eastern European, it's typically a British M 1788 Light Cavalry saber

AHorsa · 9th August 2014, 07:58 PM

Thanks for the comments! The idea with the british saber m1788 I think is very good. I found this one on the internet:

http://www.theswordpattern.co.uk/Bri...d_p/1788.2.htm

It´s nearly identic with my peace, except two thinks: The rivet is different and the handle as a whole seems to be more lenghtened. I don´t know if this is usual deviations e.g. due to different manufactures?

Best regards,
Andi

Oliver Pinchot · 10th August 2014, 03:48 AM

You're right, the deviations you're seeing are due to production by different manufacturers.

Jim McDougall · 10th August 2014, 03:53 AM

Thank you Oliver!!!

Actually this sabre indeed does seem to be a British M1788, however the rather off center position of the blade in the hilt does suggest some incongruence.
This particular hilt form is characteristic of a genre of these light cavalry hussar sabres which indeed were used in Germany, Austria and Eastern Europe in the second half of the 18th century. In looking at this at first I was inclined toward German, but it must be remembered that in this period England was not only adopting these forms, but in many cases blades and perhaps even some hilts were brought in.

With the M1788, in examples I have seen Thomas Gill of Birmingham always seemed to favor the German styling features; the flat top pommel cap usually with a button type dome, and the elongated and narrow rectangular langet which extends above and below the crossguard.

James Wooley who was a contemporary of Gill, seemed to favor a more rounded and raised pommel cap while the langets, also above and below the crossguard was elliptical in shape.

It is also possible that this sabre might have been an import from Germany brought in by J J Runkel, who was a German importer with offices in London who supplied various British outfitters and makers. If this was a Gill example it would be marked, usually stamped on back of blade near hilt.

In this time in England which was just prior to establishing regulation pattern swords (1796) there were of course variations but this example does seem to correspond to those in use by British units c 1788.

3rd August 2014, 11:51 PM	#1
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Hussar Sabre for comment Hello, I have this sabre which might be dated short before or around 1800, but I have no idea about the geographical context of this peace. I know that this style was widely spread during that time, but maybe you have some idea tp precise its provenance. Sadly there are no markings etc. to find. Best regards Andi Attached Images

6th August 2014, 02:38 PM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 403	Hi Andi, it could be from one of the German state's or even Polisch or English. In my opinion, from a german state from the Napoleonic era between 1790 and 1810 apr. I had a similar sabre once, it had a leather scabbard with long pierced iron mountings. kind regards Dirk

8th August 2014, 10:20 AM	#3
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Hi Ulfberth, thanks for your answer. I also tend to say it might be from a german state. But it seems to be nearly impossible to classify it with certainty. Best Andi

8th August 2014, 10:16 PM	#4
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 403	like you said, with no stamps etc it is hard to be sure. I remember one with a complete iron scabbard to of the german type, but to me the scabbard was from a later period after 1810. kind regards Dirk

9th August 2014, 12:32 AM	#5
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Many years ago, my friend Jim McDougall taught me that while this type looks Eastern European, it's typically a British M 1788 Light Cavalry saber

9th August 2014, 07:58 PM	#6
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Thanks for the comments! The idea with the british saber m1788 I think is very good. I found this one on the internet: http://www.theswordpattern.co.uk/Bri...d_p/1788.2.htm It´s nearly identic with my peace, except two thinks: The rivet is different and the handle as a whole seems to be more lenghtened. I don´t know if this is usual deviations e.g. due to different manufactures? Best regards, Andi

10th August 2014, 03:48 AM	#7
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	You're right, the deviations you're seeing are due to production by different manufacturers.

10th August 2014, 03:53 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Thank you Oliver!!! Actually this sabre indeed does seem to be a British M1788, however the rather off center position of the blade in the hilt does suggest some incongruence. This particular hilt form is characteristic of a genre of these light cavalry hussar sabres which indeed were used in Germany, Austria and Eastern Europe in the second half of the 18th century. In looking at this at first I was inclined toward German, but it must be remembered that in this period England was not only adopting these forms, but in many cases blades and perhaps even some hilts were brought in. With the M1788, in examples I have seen Thomas Gill of Birmingham always seemed to favor the German styling features; the flat top pommel cap usually with a button type dome, and the elongated and narrow rectangular langet which extends above and below the crossguard. James Wooley who was a contemporary of Gill, seemed to favor a more rounded and raised pommel cap while the langets, also above and below the crossguard was elliptical in shape. It is also possible that this sabre might have been an import from Germany brought in by J J Runkel, who was a German importer with offices in London who supplied various British outfitters and makers. If this was a Gill example it would be marked, usually stamped on back of blade near hilt. In this time in England which was just prior to establishing regulation pattern swords (1796) there were of course variations but this example does seem to correspond to those in use by British units c 1788.