Strange yataghan! Russian?

eftihis · 10th February 2016, 02:21 PM

Hello, this is a yataghan with a strange looking handle! I havent seen anything like that before, but somehow the bronze metalwork after the handle, reminds me of something from eastern europe or Russia. What do you think?

Battara · 10th February 2016, 05:06 PM

What an interesting piece! Although not typically Balkan or Turkish, what in the hilt looks Russian in your sight (always wanting to learn more.....).

Thanks for posting this.

eftihis · 10th February 2016, 07:09 PM

"Russian" is a wild guess! But i see some sort of resemplance with the "playful" metalwork that these 2 rusian scabbards have, and the "playful" type of metalwork in the ricasso.

David R · 10th February 2016, 10:19 PM

I would have a look under the search term "Pandour"! Starting within this forum.

mahratt · 12th February 2016, 09:29 AM

Just an interesting fact.

In Russia, sometimes made yataghans as a curiosity. For example, known yataghan made ZOF (Zlatoust arms factory) in 1902.

estcrh · 12th February 2016, 12:03 PM

Here are two examples that appear to be Russian made, Hermitage museum I think.

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2016, 03:34 PM

Excellent call Dave!!!
The 'Pandours' were auxiliary units for the Austrians mid 18th c. and comprised on primarily Hungarian and Croatian troops . While in their 'irregular' capacity with various 'line' forces, they wore their own styles of uniforms and weapons, and the 'exotic' flamboyance became favored by the military of a number of European nations. This is primarily the instance which brought in many of these Balkan and Ottoman type weapons with distinct European flair, and in my opinion are some of the most fascinating and unusual examples.
While this cannot be classified as pandour with certainty, it certainly has profound potential in that accord.

Esterch, just wanted to note that your skills in locating and posting amazing comparative examples in these threads is almost phenomenal!! Thank you for adding this great and key dimension to these discussions

Mahratt, I thank you as well as you bring in examples and outstanding images of applicable photographs and art work.

You guys are totally amazing!!

estcrh · 12th February 2016, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Esterch, just wanted to note that your skills in locating and posting amazing comparative examples in these threads is almost phenomenal!! !

Thanks Jim, I did not see that Eftihis had already posted the two examples I posted, here is another one.

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2016, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Thanks Jim, I did not see that Eftihis had already posted the two examples I posted, here is another one.

I missed that too! Nice examples and Eftihis, thank you very much as well.
Its great to see these intriguing examples from Russia, and key to note how skilled they were in making various ethnographic weapon forms such as these.

estcrh · 14th February 2016, 05:14 AM

Another Hermitage museum yatagan.

ariel · 14th February 2016, 06:32 AM

Is this one also Russian?

estcrh · 14th February 2016, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Is this one also Russian?

I am not sure, the translation from Russian does not help much, what do you thing, it just looks a bit different.

Gavin Nugent · 14th February 2016, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Is this one also Russian?

I would say at face value, and without referring to museum notes, the one above Ariel was made in the Balkan states as a diplomatic gift to Russian nobility...but detail on the scabbard seems to be a non Balkan hand?

I suspect the one in discussion originally is perhaps closer to Spain that Russia.

Gavin

ariel · 14th February 2016, 07:14 AM

There was another Russian yataghan for sale at the last year (?)Auctions Imperial.
Personally, I never liked them: they are as yataghan-ish as Chassepot bayonets.
The last one here, with gold and blueing on the blade is essentially Russian military shashka with a recurved blade. It is showy and gaudy. You just look at it and there is a feeling that .. not quite...something off. Similar to the regulation Austrian ones. There is no "smell of the Orient"
Italian Labruna ones from Naples were closer to the original, but also not the same.

It's like Mameluke regulation sabers and Persian Shamshirs, or Chinese interpretations of European sabers, or Balkan-made variants of Caucasian kindjals , or Beduin "shashkas".

Perhaps, there is something to be said about spirits of ethnically- authentic masters:-)

ariel · 14th February 2016, 07:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Is this one also Russian?

I would say at face value, and without referring to museum notes, the one above Ariel was made in the Balkan states as a diplomatic gift to Russian nobility...but detail on the scabbard seems to be a non Balkan hand?

I suspect the one in discussion originally is perhaps closer to Spain that Russia.

Gavin

-------------------------------------------

Are you referring to post #5?

There are snippets of legends, but the two readable ones refer to Abyssinian and Turkish origins. Perhaps, the desired legend was not included?

And the initial one in this topic does resemble the Labruna manufacture. Also... not quite:-)

estcrh · 14th February 2016, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Are you referring to post #5?

I think Gavin was referring to #12? I added the Russian description there anyway.

ariel · 14th February 2016, 02:32 PM

I was wondering what it was doing here: nothing Russian, typically authentic example.

estcrh · 14th February 2016, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I was wondering what it was doing here: nothing Russian, typically authentic example.

Do you know of another example like it, not the style but the design and quality of the metal work?

Rashka Vatnik · 14th February 2016, 05:18 PM

Not a Russian

ariel · 14th February 2016, 05:46 PM

I do not archive pics, so the answer is no, I do not.

It is a very classy work, but there are a lot of classy yataghans, many with European-influenced decoration ( chasing, mostly). General style, dolphin head, configuration of ears, sumptuous chasing, overall harmony and elegance... Ottoman :-)

estcrh · 14th February 2016, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rashka Vatnik

Not a Russian

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Ottoman :-)

Can anyone translate the museums description from post #12?

ariel · 14th February 2016, 11:22 PM

"Yataghan with scabbard. Asia Minor. Beginning of XIX century" . The rest is irrelevant: materials, dimension, provenance , date of accession ( 1919, so likely confiscated from the collection of poor Mr. Chertkov)

estcrh · 15th February 2016, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

"Yataghan with scabbard. Asia Minor. Beginning of XIX century" . The rest is irrelevant: materials, dimension, provenance , date of accession ( 1919, so likely confiscated from the collection of poor Mr. Chertkov)

It could be a diplomatic gift as Gavin mentioned, I personally have not seen this type of work on another example and I do have an extensive archive of images. Why would this be described as "Asia Minor" when another obviously Ottoman example from the same museum is described as being "Ottoman", what would the Russians consider Asian Minor to be?

ariel · 15th February 2016, 12:10 PM

No sense looking for some kind of deep meaning of "Asia Minor" vs. "Ottoman".
It is just a lack of uniformity, poor choice of words or faithful but thoughtless adherence to the terminology used on the original accession card.
Even more glaringly: it is described in Russian as a "Yataghan" while in English as a "Scimitar".

I have a pretty big book about Oriental sword collection from the Russian Ethnographic Museum with multiple misattributions, inaccuracies and just primitive mistakes . The publisher sesequently tried to explain them away simply by saying that : 1. They just blindly used the existing museum descriptions; 2. They had only a couple of months to prepare the catalog ; 3. Changing even the silliest error required lengthy bureaucratic process of approval by the museum bonzas; and 4. It is good enough for the masses.

In short, do not dwell on peculiarities of description. I do not remember who said that there is no need suspecting evil intent when just sheer stupidity would suffice:-)

Kubur · 8th August 2016, 10:02 AM

Hi,
I've seen this post yet.
For me your yataghan is from Tunisia.
I can see some similarities with Tunisian straigh daggers but also some pistols - I talk about the hilt / grips.
For the others yataghans (posts 3 & 6), I think they are diplomatic gifts between Algeria and Russia... They remind me some Algerian yataghans in the beautiful book that I forgot the title...
best,
Kubur

10th February 2016, 07:09 PM	#3
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	"Russian" is a wild guess! But i see some sort of resemplance with the "playful" metalwork that these 2 rusian scabbards have, and the "playful" type of metalwork in the ricasso. Attached Images

12th February 2016, 12:03 PM	#6
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	Here are two examples that appear to be Russian made, Hermitage museum I think. Attached Images

14th February 2016, 05:14 AM	#10
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	Another Hermitage museum yatagan. Attached Images

15th February 2016, 12:10 PM	#24
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No sense looking for some kind of deep meaning of "Asia Minor" vs. "Ottoman". It is just a lack of uniformity, poor choice of words or faithful but thoughtless adherence to the terminology used on the original accession card. Even more glaringly: it is described in Russian as a "Yataghan" while in English as a "Scimitar". I have a pretty big book about Oriental sword collection from the Russian Ethnographic Museum with multiple misattributions, inaccuracies and just primitive mistakes . The publisher sesequently tried to explain them away simply by saying that : 1. They just blindly used the existing museum descriptions; 2. They had only a couple of months to prepare the catalog ; 3. Changing even the silliest error required lengthy bureaucratic process of approval by the museum bonzas; and 4. It is good enough for the masses. In short, do not dwell on peculiarities of description. I do not remember who said that there is no need suspecting evil intent when just sheer stupidity would suffice:-) Last edited by ariel; 15th February 2016 at 12:31 PM.

10th February 2016, 02:21 PM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Strange yataghan! Russian? Hello, this is a yataghan with a strange looking handle! I havent seen anything like that before, but somehow the bronze metalwork after the handle, reminds me of something from eastern europe or Russia. What do you think? Attached Images

10th February 2016, 05:06 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	What an interesting piece! Although not typically Balkan or Turkish, what in the hilt looks Russian in your sight (always wanting to learn more.....). Thanks for posting this.

10th February 2016, 10:19 PM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	I would have a look under the search term "Pandour"! Starting within this forum.

12th February 2016, 09:29 AM	#5
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Just an interesting fact. In Russia, sometimes made yataghans as a curiosity. For example, known yataghan made ZOF (Zlatoust arms factory) in 1902. Attached Images

12th February 2016, 03:34 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Excellent call Dave!!! The 'Pandours' were auxiliary units for the Austrians mid 18th c. and comprised on primarily Hungarian and Croatian troops . While in their 'irregular' capacity with various 'line' forces, they wore their own styles of uniforms and weapons, and the 'exotic' flamboyance became favored by the military of a number of European nations. This is primarily the instance which brought in many of these Balkan and Ottoman type weapons with distinct European flair, and in my opinion are some of the most fascinating and unusual examples. While this cannot be classified as pandour with certainty, it certainly has profound potential in that accord. Esterch, just wanted to note that your skills in locating and posting amazing comparative examples in these threads is almost phenomenal!! Thank you for adding this great and key dimension to these discussions Mahratt, I thank you as well as you bring in examples and outstanding images of applicable photographs and art work. You guys are totally amazing!!

14th February 2016, 06:32 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Is this one also Russian?

14th February 2016, 07:14 AM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There was another Russian yataghan for sale at the last year (?)Auctions Imperial. Personally, I never liked them: they are as yataghan-ish as Chassepot bayonets. The last one here, with gold and blueing on the blade is essentially Russian military shashka with a recurved blade. It is showy and gaudy. You just look at it and there is a feeling that .. not quite...something off. Similar to the regulation Austrian ones. There is no "smell of the Orient" Italian Labruna ones from Naples were closer to the original, but also not the same. It's like Mameluke regulation sabers and Persian Shamshirs, or Chinese interpretations of European sabers, or Balkan-made variants of Caucasian kindjals , or Beduin "shashkas". Perhaps, there is something to be said about spirits of ethnically- authentic masters:-)

14th February 2016, 07:23 AM	#15
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Quote: Originally Posted by ariel Is this one also Russian? I would say at face value, and without referring to museum notes, the one above Ariel was made in the Balkan states as a diplomatic gift to Russian nobility...but detail on the scabbard seems to be a non Balkan hand? I suspect the one in discussion originally is perhaps closer to Spain that Russia. Gavin ------------------------------------------- Are you referring to post #5? There are snippets of legends, but the two readable ones refer to Abyssinian and Turkish origins. Perhaps, the desired legend was not included? And the initial one in this topic does resemble the Labruna manufacture. Also... not quite:-)

14th February 2016, 02:32 PM	#17
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I was wondering what it was doing here: nothing Russian, typically authentic example.

14th February 2016, 05:18 PM	#19
Rashka Vatnik Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 4	Not a Russian

14th February 2016, 05:46 PM	#20
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I do not archive pics, so the answer is no, I do not. It is a very classy work, but there are a lot of classy yataghans, many with European-influenced decoration ( chasing, mostly). General style, dolphin head, configuration of ears, sumptuous chasing, overall harmony and elegance... Ottoman :-)

14th February 2016, 11:22 PM	#22
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	"Yataghan with scabbard. Asia Minor. Beginning of XIX century" . The rest is irrelevant: materials, dimension, provenance , date of accession ( 1919, so likely confiscated from the collection of poor Mr. Chertkov)

8th August 2016, 10:02 AM	#25
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi, I've seen this post yet. For me your yataghan is from Tunisia. I can see some similarities with Tunisian straigh daggers but also some pistols - I talk about the hilt / grips. For the others yataghans (posts 3 & 6), I think they are diplomatic gifts between Algeria and Russia... They remind me some Algerian yataghans in the beautiful book that I forgot the title... best, Kubur