Indian Self-Defense(?) Oddity

[CourseEight]

Hi all --

I just picked up this item, and I haven't been able to find out any information about it (what is it called if it has a name, etc.) or pictures of any other examples. It doesn't quite have the same sort of blades you would expect from a haladie, but is this considered one? It reminds me a bit of a (double) kubaton, but that's a more modern thing.

I appreciate any knowledge anyone may have!

--Radeigh

[fearn]

Interesting piece. Do you have evidence that it's Indian?

[CourseEight]

The person I bought it from got it in a lot of weapons received from India, which included obviously Indian tulwar, lance heads, and a bagh nahk (which I also purchased ). So, if it isn't Indian, it made its way to an Indian arsenal at some point...

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by CourseEight

Hi all --

I just picked up this item, and I haven't been able to find out any information about it (what is it called if it has a name, etc.) or pictures of any other examples. It doesn't quite have the same sort of blades you would expect from a haladie, but is this considered one? It reminds me a bit of a (double) kubaton, but that's a more modern thing.

Maybe it's a Dulo-dulo/Yawara (Filipino) type of self-defense weapon, usually made of wood or horn... and that is very similar in concept to a kubaton. Also, I know in Kalaripayattu, the cottaccan is a small stick that fits in the palm used to strike at vital spots, like the marma points. Usually they are wooden and sometimes tipped with brass... Maybe it's more common back then than you think cause the ancient horn-bichwa may have also been a point-impact-weapon, not a dagger (horn doesn't make for a good cutter). However it does seem that daggers would be an easier self-defense weapon because of the damaged that it can do with less training.

Hope that helps

Originally Posted by CourseEight

The person I bought it from got it in a lot of weapons received from India, which included obviously Indian tulwar, lance heads, and a bagh nahk (which I also purchased ). So, if it isn't Indian, it made its way to an Indian arsenal at some point...

Bagh Nakh too?! Wow, you lucky bast... good for you!
Any pictures of said lucky tiger claws?

[ariel]

In a way, this is a cousin of Haladie: Indian, Sudanese, Syrian etc.

[Atlantia]

Hi Radleigh,

The diversity of Indian weaponry never ceases to amaze me.
My initial thoughts on this one was that it was a 'relative' of the double ended long bladed (or horned) weapons, but having thought about it, I actually think it has more in common with the Bagh-nakh! that is, a 'hand to hand' weapon, but without the stealth 'assasination' flavour of the Bagh-Nakh.
It would be ineffective as a parrying weapon, the sort blades offer no parrying or 'catching' ability and the lack of a knuckle guard leaves the hand completely exposed.
The really strange thing is that is that it seems to have no apparent advantages in its strange design.
The obvious weight and protruding blades discount concealment and stealth, and the lack of length and protection preclude the primary objective being defence while at the same time being inefficient for (given the huge variety of other options of similar size) offence.
Very odd! Unique in my experience.
Can you post some pictures of the Bagh-Nahk?

Regards
Gene

[fearn]

Hi Atlantia,

There are Japanese and Chinese versions of this type of weapon. I don't recall the Japanese categorical name, but "hand loads" fits.

Think of it as the equivalent of a brass knuckles, or something someone would have in their pocket for problems. The kubotan is from the same lineage, as are Chinese Judge's pens.

F

[CourseEight]

Thank you everyone for your replies thus far! I do not have either item in hand yet, but my impression of it is that Fearn is probably correct in terms of usage. More detailed pictures may determine whether this is actually from further east, or an Indian piece inspired by such ideas.

Any pictures of the Chinese or Japanese versions of this?

I have one picture so far of the bagh nahk, more of that too upon arrival.

Cheers!

--Radleigh

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Atlantia,

There are Japanese and Chinese versions of this type of weapon. I don't recall the Japanese categorical name, but "hand loads" fits.

Think of it as the equivalent of a brass knuckles, or something someone would have in their pocket for problems. The kubotan is from the same lineage, as are Chinese Judge's pens.

F

Hi Fearn
Good observations
Well, its certainly a step-up from putting a horseshoe in in boxing glove
I've never seen this type of thing in Indian weaponry though, have you?
Regards
Gene

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by CourseEight

Thank you everyone for your replies thus far! I do not have either item in hand yet, but my impression of it is that Fearn is probably correct in terms of usage. More detailed pictures may determine whether this is actually from further east, or an Indian piece inspired by such ideas.

Any pictures of the Chinese or Japanese versions of this?

I have one picture so far of the bagh nahk, more of that too upon arrival.

Cheers!

--Radleigh

Bloody Hell!
Thats the nicest example I think I've seen outside of books!
Love the double curve in the claws, and that back edge decoration.
What a lucky find.
I'm seriously jealous
Well done indeed!!!!!!!!

Regards
Gene

[CourseEight]

Thanks, I'm itching to receive both pieces. I've been hunting for an affordable Bagh Nakh since I started collecting. Now if I can get my hands on a Bichwa-Bagh-Nakh...

On the subject of the original piece that started the thread, I've been looking through what books I have and on page 12 of Egerton's Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour, Figure 2, Number 7 there is a drawing of a (maybe) similar piece. The only caption is "Arms from Sanchi and Udayagiri" but there is no specific labeling of the pieces. Does anyone know if there is a more detailed description of this graphic somewhere?

Thanks for everyone's continued insights!

--Radleigh

[bhushan_lawate]

Hi,

Could this be a weapon used in the training of "jambiya Kushti" meaning "Jambiya Wrestling"??????

I've seen similar weapons made of antelope horns but which are more of parrying weapons as they have a knuckle guard, which is entirely absent in this example.


Regards,
Bhushan Lawate