Mongol Dogpa knife?

[blue lander]

I just won the auction for this, the seller describes it as a "Mongol Dogpa" knife. It doesn't look Mongol to me, at least not Khalkha Mongol, but it seems to fit somewhere along the Mongol/Tibet/China spectrum.

After some googling it seems that there a couple different ethnic groups called Dogpa or Brogpa. One is a group of Aryans living in India while the other seem to be an ethnic group in Tibet. Can anybody help me narrow the origin down?

[Sajen]

This type of knives seems to be found in the great area you have already mentioned. By your one I see some ornaments which look chinese.
I have a similar one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=tibet
Your one look relative recent but made in traditional manner. I know that these knives sometimes are called lothi, see here: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=5657

Regards,
Detlef

[blue lander]

It does look a little bit like the lothi in your second link. What struck me as most different about this one compared to what you usually see is that the scabbard is sort of bow shaped rather than tubular. It also seems to have a belt loop of some sort. I've never seen those on a Mongol/Tibetan/Chinese one as they were usually carried by tucking them into your belt or sash.

I've attached a picture of my Mongolian knife, which is more or less tubular like your Tibetan one. Both look like they've been sharpened quite a few times. I'm sure mine had dispatched countless sheep during its working life.

[Sajen]

I have seen several with this bow shaped scabbards, special by ebay. I think that your second one is indeed from Mongolia, the handle seems to be typical for the Mongolian version. Like you I have noticed that there are tubular scabbards and more rectangular scabbards, some of these are set with stones. But I know not enough about this knives to say from where the different forms coming.

Regards,
Detlef

[blue lander]

Hmm, maybe its a newer style. I'll keep an eye on eBay for similar ones.

That other one came from a seller in Ulan baatar so I'm pretty confident its Mongolian. Obviously a work knife rather than a fancy outfit holiday knife. Still trying to track one of those down.

[spiral]

Love the second one B.L., you can see its old style steel & truly an ethnographic piece!

The first one is modern fake Tibetan in style, the curved blade is usual, saw loads like it in Nepal in 2005, all I saw were either modern Nepali fakes or mostly modern Chinese made imports....{Also fake...} Original Tibetan pieces obviously exist but there a lot more fake than real out there, & that isn't one of them.

Get more stuff like the second one!

spiiral

[Sajen]

Some threads of interest in this manner!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=tibet+knife
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=tibet+knife
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=tibet+knife
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=tibet+knife
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ongolian+knife
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ongolian+knife

[blue lander]

Oh well, stinks that its a fake. The blade looks fairly scratched up though, o don't know if that's from usage or just poor finishing.

I've been trying to get more Mongolian knives from my inlaws who live over there but cultural differences have gotten the way. I asked for an antique knife, but to them it'd be insulting to give a relative somebody's old knife. So I said fine, get me a new one. But new ones are very expensive because they're adorned with silver. So I said fine, get me a plain one without any silver. But they wouldn't do that either because "even a poor person's knife has some silver on it."

My final attempt is for them to buy a cheap unadorned knife and then bring it to jeweler who can add some silver decorations. This is apparently cheaper than buying a premade one.

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

The first one is modern fake Tibetan in style, the curved blade is usual, saw loads like it in Nepal in 2005, all I saw were either modern Nepali fakes or mostly modern Chinese made imports….{Also fake...} Original Tibetan pieces obviously exist but there a lot more fake than real out there, & that isn't one of them.

Spiral, this first one is obviously a modern example, but what makes them "fake" in your estimation? It doesn't seem to me that it is pretending to be an antique example. If it is it is doing a very poor job of it.

[blue lander]

I think it'll be apparent whether or not it's a fake when I hold it in my hands. If it's a sturdy knife that looks like it wasn't 100% made in a factory in China I'll consider it a keeper.

While we're on the subject of Central Asian knives of this family, I've attached a picture of what are supposedly a Buryat knife and a Yakut knife. Both are from e-bay auctions several months ago that I didn't bid on because I was concerned they were just tourist pieces. The white and silver one is Buryat, the other Yakut.

[Aleksey]

The initial knife is pure Tibetan knife but presumably of XX century.

The ironwork on scabbard is classic for Tibet.

Such knives used as household utensilf (e.g. to slice meat etc.) by Tibetans during the previous century. So even if it dates of 1950-1960th it is not fake.

BTW "dogpa" is not Mongolian word - it is Tibetan by the pronunsiation but spelling seems to be utterly simplified and I can not find the Tibetan original word.

Some Mongolians dwell in Tibet since 1630th - they are named "sog-po" (simplified spelling for convenience) by Tibetans.

[blue lander]

My guess is that the "dogpa" the seller was referring to are the Drokpa people, who are apparently Tibetan nomads.

http://www.iwgia.org/iwgia_files_pub...3-09_tibet.pdf

[Aleksey]

It seems to be true.

"-pa/-ba" in the end of the word means "man". E.g. changpa - the people of chang (plains in the mountain). Peba - people of Lhasa region, etc.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Spiral, this first one is obviously a modern example, but what makes them "fake" in your estimation? It doesn't seem to me that it is pretending to be an antique example. If it is it is doing a very poor job of it.

MMMM I see your point David,

First off it was sold as Mongolian...I think the design is Tibetan?

I also regard them as fake because nearly all like that Ive ever seen whether, on ebay, In Nepal or from Antique dealers are sold as late 19th or early 20th century.

Most are also made in china {as are most tourist kukri in Nepal with coins on the scabbards} Many others are made in Nepal, often by Nepalese.

If there for sale to locals ,{who buy them.} in Tibet that would be a different matter.

But that just my view, others can regard them as modern ethnographics if they so wish...

I am sure a few are Tibetan, but I don't think its many.

I suspect Mongolian ones have never existed?

spiral

[blue lander]

I agree the Mongolian attribution is spurious. Perhaps because the drokpa are also nomads the previous owner thought they were ethnic Mongols.

As to if this thing is real or a Chinese made tourist piece I think it could go either way. On the one hand there's no visible wear and tear on the scabbard and you can still see glue from where the price sticker is attached. On the other hand it looks sturdy enough and it appears to be hand made. Plus, I'd be more suspicious if the seller sold it as a Tibetan or Chinese knife. The drokpa attribution is so specific and obscure that I assume there must be some truth behind the claim.

If it is a fake then I'm impressed with the attention to detail. I once bought a knife that was Native American according to the packaging. The knife itself was a Tibetan dossum with Mongolian writing on the scabbard. It was, of course, made in china.

[Sajen]

I've noticed that I never post pictures from my one how it look now. So here some pictures and a question: what is the sort of "leather", ray skin? Or what I have read somewhere frog skin? Could be lizard skin also. I am unsure about this. Have someone an answer?

Regards,
Detlef