Small Sumatra keris

Sajen · 14th February 2010, 10:34 PM

Hello all,

recently I have bought a small Sumatra (?) keris. My first question to you: is it from Sumatra or from Peninsula?

Here the pictures from the seller.

Sajen · 14th February 2010, 10:58 PM

After I have received it I have had some taskwork surprises. The second white ring at the gandar have been from some sort of tape and the other one show by the hot needle test that it is from plastic. Then I have removed the silver cap from the buntut, see the pictures. The black ring and the original buntut are from real horn. The complete sheat have had a cover with clear varnish, I have removed it with steel-wool, the wood is very nice. I plan to replace the white rings with white water buffalo horn.
But I don't have a clear hunch how the buntut original have looked, here I want to ask you for help. Is it possible that the buntut also have had a white ring?

Thank you very much in advance,

Detlef

Gustav · 15th February 2010, 08:25 AM

Sajen, did you change the pendokok? Why?

BluErf · 15th February 2010, 08:33 AM

Likely to be a Riau keris. The buntut probably have the same pattern as the throat before ending in a rounded chape.

Alam Shah · 15th February 2010, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Sajen, did you change the pendokok? Why?

The pendokok is a Sumbawa form.. a lotus form would look better, imho.

Sajen, that's a nice piece, congratulations.. the blade need cleaning, though.

Sajen · 15th February 2010, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Sajen, did you change the pendokok? Why?

Hello Gustav,

yes I have changed because the "original" seems a little bit to small but I am also not happy with this one, like Alam write it's a Sumbawa one. I hope I found a lotus pendokok.

Sajen · 15th February 2010, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Likely to be a Riau keris. The buntut probably have the same pattern as the throat before ending in a rounded chape.

Thank you Kai Wee, this make sense, so I will attach here also a ring with white buffalo horn and a rounded end piece from black horn.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 15th February 2010, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

The pendokok is a Sumbawa form.. a lotus form would look better, imho.

Sajen, that's a nice piece, congratulations.. the blade need cleaning, though.

Hi Alam,

thank you for comment, yes, the pendokok is from Sumbawa. What do you think about the "original" one. The blade will get a cleaning and a warangan also.

Detlef

rasdan · 15th February 2010, 06:25 PM

I think this a probably Northern Peninsular keris from Kedah, Perlis or North Perak. The characteristics are: The sampir looks like Riau one, and the "batang sarung" tapers a bit and the buntut is in the "Buntut Lipas" form and the hilt is Jawa Demam that is a bit like the Pattani Pekaka. Some keris from that region uses flat buntut as well. The tips of the sampir are normally triangular like a Terengganu one. However, if somebody choses to take a Riau keris and modify it into this form it nobody can really tell for sure.

I attached a picture of a keris from Pendang, Kedah that i grab from the net. Note the pendongkok looks very Sumatran, but this one is a typical type found on Northern Peninsular keris. The tips of the sampir are rather extreme.

Sajen · 15th February 2010, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

I think this a probably Northern Peninsular keris from Kedah, Perlis or North Perak. The characteristics are: The sampir looks like Riau one, and the "batang sarung" tapers a bit and the buntut is in the "Buntut Lipas" form and the hilt is Jawa Demam that is a bit like the Pattani Pekaka. Some keris from that region uses flat buntut as well. The tips of the sampir are normally triangular like a Terengganu one. However, if somebody choses to take a Riau keris and modify it into this form it nobody can really tell for sure.

I attached a picture of a keris from Pendang, Kedah that i grab from the net. Note the pendongkok looks very Sumatran, but this one is a typical type found on Northern Peninsular keris. The tips of the sampir are rather extreme.

Thank you Rasdan for your input. I have a similar keris to yours and the sampir of this one is very similar to my new one. So coming up the question in #1.
BTW, what do you think about the "original" pendokok?

Regards,

Detlef

BluErf · 16th February 2010, 02:36 AM

The "original" is quite unusual, but has Peninsula flavour, especially the petals. But as we move down the pendoko to the stem, it looks stranger and stranger.

Where did you get this pendoko?

I have a similar keris to Radan's example. Thought this was a Pattani "interpretation" of a Riau keris.

I have another Malay keris which we suspect to be from Kedah, Pahang or Perak. Ok it's a v large area, but it is really through a process of elimination that these states were left as the likely candidates for the keris.

As to Sajen's keris, I have mentioned that it is likely Riau, but this keris is one of those really grey ones. But looking at it again, it could very well be Terengganu. Some more pics to follow.

BluErf · 16th February 2010, 02:40 AM

A couple of Terengganu examples. Incidentally, both are small-sized, like Sajen's.

BluErf · 16th February 2010, 02:57 AM

Normally, how we differentiate Riau and Terengganu kerises are through the sheath, blade, hilt and pendoko. In this case, the blade and pendoko do not offer much ques since the former is a generic Bugis blade while the pendoko was not correct. The hilt form could also offer some clues, though a lot of times we tend not to look at it that much since hilts are most likely to be swapped, along with pendokos. So it is down to the sheath. The main differentiating factor between Terengganu and Riau is that the former tends to be more boxy, while the latter is more 'voluptuous', for a lack of better word. Sajen's keris is like somewhere in between. Material used may be a clue as well, with Terengganu sheaths sometimes using highly figured kemuning of ketengga wood not found in Riau/Sumatra, but again in this case, this is not so obvious.

AyAtOyOlLa · 16th February 2010, 05:16 AM

Wa

David · 16th February 2010, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AyAtOyOlLa

Wa

Ummm....would you care to elaborate?

rasdan · 16th February 2010, 01:59 PM

Gotta add a bit more. Blu gotta point there. The wood grain on your first keris is rather rare for a Northern Peninsula (Kedah etc) keris. Most of them uses wood like your second keris and my example and also Blu's first example (nice keris Blu) - No or little chatoyance. So this may add to the possibility that this is from Riau as Blu had mentioned. But again, for the overall score i would guess that this is a Peninsula keris. (Alan would hate this sort of "guessing game" discussion - sorry Alan

)

I think I just learned a new thing here. I just remembered that i used to have a keris like your first example, but minus the wood grain. My guess is that it is from Perak. Unfortunately i cannot locate the photos. The folder is there, but theres no pics inside.

Your second example and Blu's is probably from Kedah area that is close to Kelantan and Thai border where their accent is closer to the Kelantanese accent. As you can see, in your first example the sampir and batang serunai is rather flat than your second example which is a bit rounded - very much like Kelantan/Pattani. But this is just my rookie guess, I could well be wrong.

Regarding the pendongkok in #1 and your replacement is no appropriate, i think a typical Peninsular Telur Ikan pendongkok or as in any of Blu's example would be nice.

I think your second example and Blu's first example is rather rare in form and i love it. Congrats guys..

Alam Shah · 16th February 2010, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

... What do you think about the "original" one. The blade will get a cleaning and a warangan also.

Detlef

The "original" pendokok/mendak/hilt ring that comes with the piece, seems like a replacement.. BluErf's hilt ring seems like a good fitting for your piece..
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=54668&stc=1

Sajen · 16th February 2010, 11:55 PM

[QUOTE=BluErf]The "original" is quite unusual, but has Peninsula flavour, especially the petals. But as we move down the pendoko to the stem, it looks stranger and stranger.

Where did you get this pendoko?

Like Alam guessing before it's a Sumbawa pendokok, I get it with a Sumbawa keris, but it have been to small for the handle.

Sajen · 17th February 2010, 12:00 AM

Regarding the pendongkok in #1 and your replacement is no appropriate, i think a typical Peninsular Telur Ikan pendongkok or as in any of Blu's example would be nice.

I think that this will be a problem to get adequate pendoko for this keris.

I think your second example and Blu's first example is rather rare in form and i love it. Congrats guys..[/QUOTE]

Thank's!

Sajen · 17th February 2010, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

The "original" pendokok/mendak/hilt ring that comes with the piece, seems like a replacement.. BluErf's hilt ring seems like a good fitting for your piece..
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=54668&stc=1

This have been my feeling also that the pendokok which coming with the keris have been a replacement. I will search for a better and adequate one.

Sajen · 17th February 2010, 12:08 AM

Many thank's to Kai Wee, Alam and Rasdan for all the informations and pictures of beautiful examples of this region.

Sajen · 24th April 2010, 05:59 PM

Here the pictures after the restore work at the sheat. Since I don't have had bone or ivory it was used translucent horn for the before white rings.
What do you think: is the form of the buntut correct?

David · 24th April 2010, 07:02 PM

I like it! Certainly a nice improvement over how you received the piece.

Mamat Lombok · 24th April 2010, 07:17 PM

Dear forum ,

do you think this keris is from sumatera too..?? cause i have no idea about it.
i found it in lombok.
thanks.

kind regards,

mamat

Alam Shah · 24th April 2010, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Here the pictures after the restore work at the sheat. Since I don't have had bone or ivory it was used translucent horn for the before white rings.
What do you think: is the form of the buntut correct?

Very nice restoration works.. the translucent horn looks alright.. and the buntut looks ok..

Sajen · 24th April 2010, 09:26 PM

Thank you David and Alam! Now I still need a pendokok in proper style.

Dear Mamat, seems to be a nice keris with unusual sheat form. I have no hunch from where it orginates. BTW, I think you will get more comments when you give it a own thread.

Regards,
Detlef

Gustav · 24th April 2010, 11:44 PM

Detlef,

it looks really good!

(Only one thing. I looked at your keris... then at BluErf's keris... then at your keris again - and THEN : what when the second, missing collar wasn't a white one (and there was only white tape at hand)?!

But you know, it's spring and the first really warm Samedy night this year in my town...

).

Have you done some extra polish or just cleaned the sheath?

Sajen · 25th April 2010, 12:11 AM

Gustav,

the sheat has get some coats with shellac and polish between and as well at last. Look also this thread what shellac can do:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11592

Maybe Kai Wee shall look if one of the collars of his keris is also from tape?

BluErf · 25th April 2010, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Here the pictures after the restore work at the sheat. Since I don't have had bone or ivory it was used translucent horn for the before white rings.
What do you think: is the form of the buntut correct?

This indeed a great improvement. Very nice. You just need a proper Malay pendoko.

BluErf · 25th April 2010, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Gustav,

the sheat has get some coats with shellac and polish between and as well at last. Look also this thread what shellac can do:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11592

Maybe Kai Wee shall look if one of the collars of his keris is also from tape?

Only black horn and ivory

14th February 2010, 10:58 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	After I have received it I have had some taskwork surprises. The second white ring at the gandar have been from some sort of tape and the other one show by the hot needle test that it is from plastic. Then I have removed the silver cap from the buntut, see the pictures. The black ring and the original buntut are from real horn. The complete sheat have had a cover with clear varnish, I have removed it with steel-wool, the wood is very nice. I plan to replace the white rings with white water buffalo horn. But I don't have a clear hunch how the buntut original have looked, here I want to ask you for help. Is it possible that the buntut also have had a white ring? Thank you very much in advance, Detlef Attached Images

15th February 2010, 06:25 PM	#9
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	I think this a probably Northern Peninsular keris from Kedah, Perlis or North Perak. The characteristics are: The sampir looks like Riau one, and the "batang sarung" tapers a bit and the buntut is in the "Buntut Lipas" form and the hilt is Jawa Demam that is a bit like the Pattani Pekaka. Some keris from that region uses flat buntut as well. The tips of the sampir are normally triangular like a Terengganu one. However, if somebody choses to take a Riau keris and modify it into this form it nobody can really tell for sure. I attached a picture of a keris from Pendang, Kedah that i grab from the net. Note the pendongkok looks very Sumatran, but this one is a typical type found on Northern Peninsular keris. The tips of the sampir are rather extreme. Attached Images

16th February 2010, 02:36 AM	#11
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The "original" is quite unusual, but has Peninsula flavour, especially the petals. But as we move down the pendoko to the stem, it looks stranger and stranger. Where did you get this pendoko? I have a similar keris to Radan's example. Thought this was a Pattani "interpretation" of a Riau keris. I have another Malay keris which we suspect to be from Kedah, Pahang or Perak. Ok it's a v large area, but it is really through a process of elimination that these states were left as the likely candidates for the keris. As to Sajen's keris, I have mentioned that it is likely Riau, but this keris is one of those really grey ones. But looking at it again, it could very well be Terengganu. Some more pics to follow. Attached Images

16th February 2010, 02:40 AM	#12
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	A couple of Terengganu examples. Incidentally, both are small-sized, like Sajen's. Attached Images

17th February 2010, 12:00 AM	#19
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Regarding the pendongkok in #1 and your replacement is no appropriate, i think a typical Peninsular Telur Ikan pendongkok or as in any of Blu's example would be nice. I think that this will be a problem to get adequate pendoko for this keris. I think your second example and Blu's first example is rather rare in form and i love it. Congrats guys..[/QUOTE] Thank's! Last edited by Sajen; 17th February 2010 at 06:01 PM.

14th February 2010, 10:34 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Small Sumatra keris Hello all, recently I have bought a small Sumatra (?) keris. My first question to you: is it from Sumatra or from Peninsula? Here the pictures from the seller. Attached Images

15th February 2010, 08:25 AM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Sajen, did you change the pendokok? Why?

15th February 2010, 08:33 AM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Likely to be a Riau keris. The buntut probably have the same pattern as the throat before ending in a rounded chape.

16th February 2010, 02:57 AM	#13
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Normally, how we differentiate Riau and Terengganu kerises are through the sheath, blade, hilt and pendoko. In this case, the blade and pendoko do not offer much ques since the former is a generic Bugis blade while the pendoko was not correct. The hilt form could also offer some clues, though a lot of times we tend not to look at it that much since hilts are most likely to be swapped, along with pendokos. So it is down to the sheath. The main differentiating factor between Terengganu and Riau is that the former tends to be more boxy, while the latter is more 'voluptuous', for a lack of better word. Sajen's keris is like somewhere in between. Material used may be a clue as well, with Terengganu sheaths sometimes using highly figured kemuning of ketengga wood not found in Riau/Sumatra, but again in this case, this is not so obvious.

16th February 2010, 05:16 AM	#14
AyAtOyOlLa Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 7	Wa

16th February 2010, 01:59 PM	#16
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Gotta add a bit more. Blu gotta point there. The wood grain on your first keris is rather rare for a Northern Peninsula (Kedah etc) keris. Most of them uses wood like your second keris and my example and also Blu's first example (nice keris Blu) - No or little chatoyance. So this may add to the possibility that this is from Riau as Blu had mentioned. But again, for the overall score i would guess that this is a Peninsula keris. (Alan would hate this sort of "guessing game" discussion - sorry Alan ) I think I just learned a new thing here. I just remembered that i used to have a keris like your first example, but minus the wood grain. My guess is that it is from Perak. Unfortunately i cannot locate the photos. The folder is there, but theres no pics inside. Your second example and Blu's is probably from Kedah area that is close to Kelantan and Thai border where their accent is closer to the Kelantanese accent. As you can see, in your first example the sampir and batang serunai is rather flat than your second example which is a bit rounded - very much like Kelantan/Pattani. But this is just my rookie guess, I could well be wrong. Regarding the pendongkok in #1 and your replacement is no appropriate, i think a typical Peninsular Telur Ikan pendongkok or as in any of Blu's example would be nice. I think your second example and Blu's first example is rather rare in form and i love it. Congrats guys..

16th February 2010, 11:55 PM	#18
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	[QUOTE=BluErf]The "original" is quite unusual, but has Peninsula flavour, especially the petals. But as we move down the pendoko to the stem, it looks stranger and stranger. Where did you get this pendoko? Like Alam guessing before it's a Sumbawa pendokok, I get it with a Sumbawa keris, but it have been to small for the handle.

17th February 2010, 12:08 AM	#21
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Many thank's to Kai Wee, Alam and Rasdan for all the informations and pictures of beautiful examples of this region.

24th April 2010, 05:59 PM	#22
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Here the pictures after the restore work at the sheat. Since I don't have had bone or ivory it was used translucent horn for the before white rings. What do you think: is the form of the buntut correct? Attached Images

24th April 2010, 07:02 PM	#23
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	I like it! Certainly a nice improvement over how you received the piece.

24th April 2010, 07:17 PM	#24
Mamat Lombok Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: lombok-indonesia Posts: 66	is it sumatera..??? Dear forum , do you think this keris is from sumatera too..?? cause i have no idea about it. i found it in lombok. thanks. kind regards, mamat Attached Images

24th April 2010, 09:26 PM	#26
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Thank you David and Alam! Now I still need a pendokok in proper style. Dear Mamat, seems to be a nice keris with unusual sheat form. I have no hunch from where it orginates. BTW, I think you will get more comments when you give it a own thread. Regards, Detlef

24th April 2010, 11:44 PM	#27
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Detlef, it looks really good! (Only one thing. I looked at your keris... then at BluErf's keris... then at your keris again - and THEN : what when the second, missing collar wasn't a white one (and there was only white tape at hand)?! But you know, it's spring and the first really warm Samedy night this year in my town... ). Have you done some extra polish or just cleaned the sheath? Last edited by Gustav; 25th April 2010 at 12:22 AM. Reason: miserable english

25th April 2010, 12:11 AM	#28
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Gustav, the sheat has get some coats with shellac and polish between and as well at last. Look also this thread what shellac can do: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11592 Maybe Kai Wee shall look if one of the collars of his keris is also from tape? Last edited by Sajen; 25th April 2010 at 12:36 AM.