Preservation vs. restoration - opinions?

[FenrisWolf]

I'm curious; a number of times I've seen weapons offered for sale that, through wear and tear or simple neglect, have deteriorated significantly from their original condition. Now at what point should one look at such a blade and take active steps to restore it in some manner, beyond the bacis of simply cleaning and oiling the steel?

I currently have one such, a short yataghan with an eared hilt of walrus ivory that has been abused by decades of neglect. The blade is literally black with rust, the sivlerwork that normally decorates the transition from hilt to blade is missing, and the wood spacers underlying the ivory scales are so dried out the the hilt positive rattles.

I have already started conservation work on the blade itself, carefully removing as much of the rust as possible without damaging the underlying metal. At best it will probably turn out something like the blade of the nimcha I posted earlier, badly pitted with patches of smooth steel in between. It won't be beautiful, but it will arrest the ongoing corrosion. My real question is what to do about the hilt?

Assuming one could be found, would it be proper to put the sword in the hands of a weaponsmaker who could duplicate what has been lost? If, say, the silverwork was hallmarked to indicate it had be redone in modern times, would that be acceptable? Or should I leave it strictly alone, and stop at preserving the blade? One other thought I had was to hang on to the yataghan just as it is, and wait until I find another one, one with a fine blade but a badly damaged hilt and transfer the ivory to that one?

I know that in the Middle East the re-hilting of blades is not uncommon; one of the great treasures is finding a kaskara with a captured Crusader's sword blade in its mounts, and european blades in Middle Eastern fittings are a byword. So where is the line drawn on such restorations?

Fenris

[S.Al-Anizi]

Originally Posted by FenrisWolf

I know that in the Middle East the re-hilting of blades is not uncommon; one of the great treasures is finding a kaskara with a captured Crusader's sword blade in its mounts, and european blades in Middle Eastern fittings are a byword. So where is the line drawn on such restorations?

Fenris

Very interesting topic. I guess for the middle east, because the usage of swords remained even to the early 20th century in some areas. Restoration by re-fitting and polishing blades is something natural to them, not a taboo, as it is to us collectors.

[VANDOO]

PRESERVATION SHOULD ALWAYS BE DONE IF YOU KNOW HOW AND HAVE THE SKILLS OR CAN LEARN THEM. WITHOUT ATTEMPTS AT PRESERVATION EVEN A PRISTINE EXAMPLE WILL BECOME LESS PRISTINE AND A BADLY RUSTED ITEM WILL BECOME MUCH WORSE QUICKLY. NO PRESERVATION EQUALS NEGELECT. ALL IRON OR STEEL ARTEFACTS DUG UP IN ARCHEOLOGICAL DIGS ON LAND AND IN SEA HAVE TO BE STABLEIZED OR THEY WILL BE LOST AND IT DOSEN'T EFFECT THE VALUE.

RESTORE THAT IS WHERE IT BECOMES MORE DIFFICULT AS SOME WILL ARGUE THAT THE ITEM IS NOW DESTROYED AND OF NO VALUE AS AN EXAMPLE AS IT IS NO LONGER AUTHENTIC. OFTEN THEY WILL NOT BUY IT IF ITS IN VERY BAD SHAPE AND MISSING PARTS AND WILL NOT BUY IT IF IT HAS BEEN MESSED WITH =(CLEANED DOWN TO THE METAL AND PARTS REPLACED AND LOOKING LIKE IT DID WHEN NEW)

MY PERSONEL OPPINION ON THIS IS IF IT HAS NO PROVENANCE AND CAN BE PROPERLY RESTORED FOR A REASONABLE COST THEN DO IT. IF IT HAS PROVENANCE AND IS REMARKABLE BUT IN TERRIBLE SHAPE ,USEING FOR AN EXAMPLE THE SWORD OF SUTTON HOO IT SHOULD BE PRESERVED AS IS AND PERHAPS A GOOD REPLICA MADE TO SHOW WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE NEW (THIS IS WHAT WAS DONE) FOR ANOTHER EXAMPLE THE VENUS OF MILO STATUE ,SHOULD THE MISSING ARMS BE BUT BACK ON THE STATUE IF FOUND I AM SURE IT WOULD BE ARGUED BOTH WAYS.

FORTUNATELY IF YOU CHOOSE TO RESTORE YOUR ITEM THERE WILL BE NO INTERNATIONAL OUTCRY SO I WOULD DO WHAT I WISHED WITH IT AS FAR AS RESTORATION AND WOULD CERTIANLY STABELIZE AND PRESERVE IT. OR PERHAPS TRADE OR SELL IT TO A COLLECTOR WHO LIKES HIS SWORDS ROUGH BUT AUTHENTIC HAVING WALRUS IVORY GRIPS DOES SHOW IT WAS AN ITEM WELL MADE AND EXPENSIVE IN ITS TIME THE IVORY SHOULD ALSO BE STABELIZED AS I AM SURE IT IS DRY AND BRITTLE.( SEE OLD POSTS ON IVORY).

[BBJW]

Personally I think one should keep the piece from deteriorating further by careful cleaning and oiling. I prefer to see pieces not restored and overcleaned.

bbjw

[mross]

I think the answer is; It depends!
What does it depend on? Well that is a cultural bias. If you own a nihonto and let it get a nice overal patina, you are thought of as abusing the blade. Japanese blades look much better when in full, CORRECT polish. The key is correct. What is correct? Good question. Correct is done by someone who has completed a full appreticeship in polishing from a qualified teacher.
I believe the same applies to Keris and Kris. Keris are routinely etched and have there fittings changed. If it is ok from a cultural standpoint then it's ok as long as it's done right.
Moro's held their weapons in very high regard and kept them polished and etched. It is reasonable to assume that fittings where replaced when they became unusable. The problem is there are very few who can replace the fittings and do it correctly. We have one or two on this list that can do Moro right. One thing to be aware of and beware of is this does not mean just because you are Japanese you can correctly polish a nihonto, and just because you are related to Moro does not mean you can get the fittings right.
Nihonto is unique because there is a long and highly documented traditon on how to do it and how to evaluate it.
Moro swords are hard because there are none of the old timers left that know what it means to do it right. To the best of my knowledge there is little to no documentation on Moro sword's, and the one's that knew are no longer around.
The easy and hard answer is EDUCATION. (easy and hard, how's that for a very Zen answer) Know what was done for the area you collect in. Learn the culture, how the weapon was cared for. Then go from there.

[ThePepperSkull]

(off-topic response, pls delete)

[Dom]

Originally Posted by FenrisWolf

So where is the line drawn on such restorations?

Hi Fenris
I would use a "metaphor"
the collectors of old cars, they refurbish the cars in their original condition,
or expose them as they found them?
I have the same understanding, an edged weapons, has a function to be
lethal, but also representative of social class or status of its owner
if later, due to the negligence of the heirs, these weapons became the wrecks,
it's a "noble cause" that our action, to refurbish them also decent as possible

I share completely the point of view of S.Al-Anizi, when he wrote;
- I guess for the middle east, because the usage of swords remained even to the early 20th century in some areas.
Restoration by re-fitting and polishing blades is something natural to them, not a taboo, as it is to us collectors.

regards

à +

Dom

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Moderator Support.

Salaams,
May this entire and interesting thread be relocated under my recent thread on Restoration Workshops Library please? It is highly relevant to todays Forum and I respectfully suggest that it amalgamate with that thread.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[mross]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Moderator Support.

Salaams,
May this entire and interesting thread be relocated under my recent thread on Restoration Workshops Library please? It is highly relevant to todays Forum and I respectfully suggest that it amalgamate with that thread.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I'll second that.