khevsur pranguli for comment

kronckew · 16th June 2016, 11:29 PM

found this one, from tiblisi, georgia:

billed as:
Handmade Caucasian Khevsurian Shamshir Gorda.
Handle and scabbard made of wood, iron, brass and leather.
Fittings made of brass with nice tracery and stamping.
Blade made of steel, hardened and sharpened has mark 'gorda'.

Total length is 86.5 cm (34 inches), blade - 84 cm (33 inches).

Total weight is about 1115 gram (39.3 ounce), blade - 707 gram (24.9 ounce).

has the gorda eyelash marks & the 'butterfly' dots. i've looked at the khevsurian posts elsewhere on the forum. have no idea yet how old it is. hopefully will arrive in a week or so.

ariel · 17th June 2016, 12:03 AM

I suspect it is very new.

A.alnakkas · 17th June 2016, 12:25 AM

The seller advertises that these are new I think.

ariel · 17th June 2016, 01:35 AM

Kronckew asked how old it was.

kronckew · 17th June 2016, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Kronckew asked how old it was.

yes, haven't got a reply yet but is suspect from the description (and the fairly low price) it is not an old antique. still looked like a reasonably nice traditionally made weapon. the seller had a decorated and very similarly made but curved blade a bit cheaper but i did not want to buy that one and find it would not get thru customs as for some odd reason we peasants are not allowed to import curved swords of over 50cm in blade length unless they are 'traditionally hand forged' or 'antique' over 100 years old. straight blades are not so limited & can be imported. was suspicious the seller might not be able to prove that. he has said he needs to get an export permit tomorrow before he ships it...

ariel · 17th June 2016, 05:07 AM

This is, perhaps, the strangest governmental regulation defining which swords are kosher and which are not:-)

BTW, do you know why these are called Pranguli?

kronckew · 17th June 2016, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

This is, perhaps, the strangest governmental regulation defining which swords are kosher and which are not:-)

BTW, do you know why these are called Pranguli?

no, found the name here in the forum posts as being the one they use for the straight rather than the curved ones. i note amongst the scabbard decorations there are crosses like the georgian flag, red cross of st. george, like the english flag, but with maltese crosses added to the 4 white quarter panels. probably should call it a palash.

found this page which contains an interesting video: http://www.gfmstudio.com/productions/lostcrusaders

read somewhere that the khevsurli culture stubbornly resisted change of any sort and continued making swords like this well it the late 1930's when stalin finally broke them.

the UK reg. evolved after a knee-jerk reaction to a politician being killed with one of those cheap SS 'samurai swords' so they got together and passed a law to protect themselves and banned samurai swords.

then a bunch of re-enactor and martial arts groups as well as collectors had a fit & we managed to convince them that there was a valid legitimate use for the antiques, and for new ones that were art pieces, ie. hand forged and expensive art pieces, and they compromised so any post 1950 machine made 'samurai' sword was banned.

then they had to define 'samurai sword' so they changed it to any curved sword over 50cm. ( i recall a media article about someone was arrested in possession in public of a six inch (5.25cm.)samurai sword

).

then the martial artists got them to exempt traditionally hand made swords from japan, which being very expensive would not likely be used illegally. then the quietly dropped the japan bit after they were informed that they were being racist as other cultures made traditional swords by hand forging, including a number of UK blacksmiths.

for some reason straight swords never came into the equation, so were thus permitted. unlike germany, where anything not permitted by law is verboten, UK works on the opposite, if anything is not forbidden by law it is allowed.

they also allow martial arts practitioners who are members of an approved and insured martial arts club, or re-enactment group members that belong to an insured group can import curved swords.

it's what happens when you allow politicians to actually try to think for you.

kahnjar1 · 17th June 2016, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

no, found the name here in the forum posts as being the one they use for the straight rather than the curved ones. i note amongst the scabbard decorations there is the georgian flag, red cross of st. george, like the english flag, but with maltese crosses added to the 4 white quarter panels.

the UK reg. evolved after a knee-jerk reaction to a politician being killed with one of those cheap SS 'samurai swords' so they got together and passed a law to protect themselves and banned samurai swords.

then a bunch of re-enactor and martial arts groups as well as collectors had a fit & we managed to convince them that there was a valid legitimate use for the antiques, and for new ones that were art pieces, ie. hand forged and expensive art pieces, and they compromised so any post 1950 machine made 'samurai' sword was banned.

then they had to define 'samurai sword' so they changed it to any curved sword over 50cm. ( i recall a media article about someone was arrested in possession in public of a six inch (5.25cm.)samurai sword

).

then the martial artists got them to exempt traditionally hand made swords from japan, which being very expensive would not likely be used illegally. then the quietly dropped the japan bit after they were informed that they were being racist as other cultures made traditional swords by hand forging, including a number of UK blacksmiths.

for some reason straight swords never came into the equation, so were thus permitted. unlike germany, where anything not permitted by law is verboten, UK works on the opposite, if anything is not forbidden by law it is allowed.

they also allow martial arts practitioners who are members of an approved and insured martial arts club, or re-enactment group members that belong to an insured group can import curved swords.

it's what happens when you allow politicians to actually try to think for you.

That is of course assuming that they do in fact think...........

kronckew · 17th June 2016, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

That is of course assuming that they do in fact think...........

q: how do you tell a politician is lying?
a: their mouths move.

q: how do you tell a politician is thinking?
a: smoke comes out of their ears and their brains melt and run out the nearest orifice, their anal sphincter.

back on track (ish)

another video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzaRUQ7_7cA

estcrh · 17th June 2016, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

BTW, do you know why these are called Pranguli?

Are you going to tell us?

ariel · 17th June 2016, 02:00 PM

Our political leaders work very hard:-)

Pranguli is a Georgian way of saying Firangi, European swords being straight.

There is a Khevsurian legend that a band of Crusaders got lost on their way to the Holy Land and... you can guess the rest:-) That apparently explains the occurrence of blonde and blue-eyed Khevsurs, just like there are similarly-looking Afghanis who trace their origin to no less than Alexander the Great and his Macedonians.

Directionally challenged men rule! :-)

They are taller than other Georgians and at the old bazaars in Tbilisi carpets were measured as heigths of either regular men or of a Khevsur who was conveniently located nearby at all times:-))

There is a famous story about a sudden appearance of a band of mounted Khevsurs wearing chain mails, swords and shields in Tbilisi in the summer of 1915: they just heard that the Russian Tsar was at war with .. who knows whom ... and wanted to join his army. The news did not reach their mountain villages on time and the winter snows blocked the gorges. So, they came as fast as they could:-)

They had their peculiar weapons: satiteni ( fighting rings) and Dashna, short swords made of broken sword blades. Both were in active daily use as late as 1960s. Kind of, never leave home without it:-)

Splendid bastards. For Clauzewitz war was yet another instrument of politics, but for Khevsurs it was a way of life.

kronckew · 17th June 2016, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Our political leaders work very hard:-)

...

...to get re-elected and raise their salaries.

your pranguli -ferengi = straight swords make sense. pranguli it is.

the first link i posted shows in the 'lost crusaders' video some of their castles and kindjal/qama and buckler sparring, the second shows more pranguli stuff. the first shows a guy who got 'touched' on the eyebrow & was sewing himself up like we'd pop on a band-aid.

the georgian black shield guys are cool - youtube side panel has links to them. search youtube for khevsur for more cool stuff - the italian video of the re enactor get togeter in rome is cool too.

Jim McDougall · 17th June 2016, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Our political leaders work very hard:-)

Pranguli is a Georgian way of saying Firangi, European swords being straight.

There is a Khevsurian legend that a band of Crusaders got lost on their way to the Holy Land and... you can guess the rest:-) That apparently explains the occurrence of blonde and blue-eyed Khevsurs, just like there are similarly-looking Afghanis who trace their origin to no less than Alexander the Great and his Macedonians.

Directionally challenged men rule! :-)

They are taller than other Georgians and at the old bazaars in Tbilisi carpets were measured as heigths of either regular men or of a Khevsur who was conveniently located nearby at all times:-))

There is a famous story about a sudden appearance of a band of mounted Khevsurs wearing chain mails, swords and shields in Tbilisi in the summer of 1915: they just heard that the Russian Tsar was at war with .. who knows whom ... and wanted to join his army. The news did not reach their mountain villages on time and the winter snows blocked the gorges. So, they came as fast as they could:-)

They had their peculiar weapons: satiteni ( fighting rings) and Dashna, short swords made of broken sword blades. Both were in active daily use as late as 1960s. Kind of, never leave home without it:-)

Splendid bastards. For Clauzewitz war was yet another instrument of politics, but for Khevsurs it was a way of life.

Well said Ariel! and your years of experience in studying these arms is clear . The 'pranguli' explanation is compellingly reasoned, and makes perfect sense.
As you know, I have also been interested in Khevsurian arms and history since the early 90s, and acquired one of the straight blade swords of this form then. At the time, these were remarkably little known, and the only source for information was the 1930s adventure narrative "Seven League Boots" by Richard Halliburton. This was the source for the story of the Khevsur warriors coming out of the mountains when hearing of the war.

In the 90s trying to research further was difficult at best, and trying to contact Russian sources then even more so. They refused to even talk of the Khevsurs, at least the sources I reached.

I was told of the 'pranguli' term by Iaroslav Lebedynsky after I obtained his book on Cossacks and Caucasians, and that was I think possibly the source that Wayne refers to.

The blade on my example has linear arrangements of the 'gurda' (sickle) marks, which correspond to a similar blade from Ataghi (Askhabov).

kronckew · 5th July 2016, 01:41 PM

sword has arrived. looks old*. the scabbard leather under the decorations looks ancient and a bit frayed in places. well made overall, slightly crude. blade is quite sharp and has a convex edge. fits the scabbard nicely. good balance & feels nice in the hand. tight. oiled the thick blade & got a lot of what appears to be dirt from inside the scabbard (rather than rust) and it slides in/out a lot better.

*-old is of course relative, i expect it's at least 'vintage' whatever that means. mid 20th possible?

will take some close ups when i get around to it.

p.s. - vendor i got it from in tblisi says they have no idea how old it is, they bought it from someone else who didn't say.

16th June 2016, 11:29 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	khevsur pranguli for comment found this one, from tiblisi, georgia: billed as: Handmade Caucasian Khevsurian Shamshir Gorda. Handle and scabbard made of wood, iron, brass and leather. Fittings made of brass with nice tracery and stamping. Blade made of steel, hardened and sharpened has mark 'gorda'. Total length is 86.5 cm (34 inches), blade - 84 cm (33 inches). Total weight is about 1115 gram (39.3 ounce), blade - 707 gram (24.9 ounce). has the gorda eyelash marks & the 'butterfly' dots. i've looked at the khevsurian posts elsewhere on the forum. have no idea yet how old it is. hopefully will arrive in a week or so. Attached Images

17th June 2016, 12:03 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I suspect it is very new.

17th June 2016, 12:25 AM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	The seller advertises that these are new I think.

17th June 2016, 01:35 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kronckew asked how old it was.

17th June 2016, 05:07 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	This is, perhaps, the strangest governmental regulation defining which swords are kosher and which are not:-) BTW, do you know why these are called Pranguli?

17th June 2016, 02:00 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Our political leaders work very hard:-) Pranguli is a Georgian way of saying Firangi, European swords being straight. There is a Khevsurian legend that a band of Crusaders got lost on their way to the Holy Land and... you can guess the rest:-) That apparently explains the occurrence of blonde and blue-eyed Khevsurs, just like there are similarly-looking Afghanis who trace their origin to no less than Alexander the Great and his Macedonians. Directionally challenged men rule! :-) They are taller than other Georgians and at the old bazaars in Tbilisi carpets were measured as heigths of either regular men or of a Khevsur who was conveniently located nearby at all times:-)) There is a famous story about a sudden appearance of a band of mounted Khevsurs wearing chain mails, swords and shields in Tbilisi in the summer of 1915: they just heard that the Russian Tsar was at war with .. who knows whom ... and wanted to join his army. The news did not reach their mountain villages on time and the winter snows blocked the gorges. So, they came as fast as they could:-) They had their peculiar weapons: satiteni ( fighting rings) and Dashna, short swords made of broken sword blades. Both were in active daily use as late as 1960s. Kind of, never leave home without it:-) Splendid bastards. For Clauzewitz war was yet another instrument of politics, but for Khevsurs it was a way of life.

5th July 2016, 01:41 PM	#14
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	sword has arrived. looks old. the scabbard leather under the decorations looks ancient and a bit frayed in places. well made overall, slightly crude. blade is quite sharp and has a convex edge. fits the scabbard nicely. good balance & feels nice in the hand. tight. oiled the thick blade & got a lot of what appears to be dirt from inside the scabbard (rather than rust) and it slides in/out a lot better. -old is of course relative, i expect it's at least 'vintage' whatever that means. mid 20th possible? will take some close ups when i get around to it. p.s. - vendor i got it from in tblisi says they have no idea how old it is, they bought it from someone else who didn't say.