Please help me identify the age and markings on this Rapier.

[ASPaulding]

Hello I know this is a cup hilt Rapier. It was suggested to me that it may be Portugal origin. What I don't know is how old it is or what the markings mean. I've never seen one with numbers like this. Any information you can give me will be appreciated. Thank you

[fernando]

Hello ASPaulding,
I could well be a Portuguese cup hilt, but it may be mounted on a blade from a different sword, probably military, from the 18th/19th century, with those number (inventory ?) marks and the little ricasso ?
Other members will tell you better.


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[ASPaulding]

Yes I thought it could be a so called Frankensword. The blade very much looks like a Rapier blade thou. Hopefully other will also give there opinions.

[Jim McDougall]

I was rather awaiting more detail on this from Fernando, as he is by far the authority on things Portuguese here, and my feel is this is most likely a Portuguese example of a munitions grade, ersatz weapon. The fact that this is a composite weapon does not detract from its viability, as rural posts in the Iberian peninsula as well of course colonial regions of both Portugal and Spain well used these kinds of arms.

While this has the overall feel of mid 18th c., the cup hilt remained in use throughout and in colonial settings even longer. The broad shoulder blade which tapers dramatically to point seems somewhat like earlier Portuguese types. However, without fullers and in this section, especially with the notable numbers and other possible proof or other stamps remind me of training type blades of later period. Clearly the training purpose with sharp point is contrary to that as these blades are typically rounded. The pommel appears of latter 18th c.
The quillon style, faux rompepuntas resemble some Portuguese examples in this period and classification.

The wire grip is unusual and of some concern, Is it cast and rusty or painted?

I look forward to comments toward my thoughts.

[werecow]

The blade looks relatively short for a rapier. How long is it?

[ASPaulding]

35 1/2" total length; 29" blade length.

[ASPaulding]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I was rather awaiting more detail on this from Fernando, as he is by far the authority on things Portuguese here, and my feel is this is most likely a Portuguese example of a munitions grade, ersatz weapon. The fact that this is a composite weapon does not detract from its viability, as rural posts in the Iberian peninsula as well of course colonial regions of both Portugal and Spain well used these kinds of arms.

While this has the overall feel of mid 18th c., the cup hilt remained in use throughout and in colonial settings even longer. The broad shoulder blade which tapers dramatically to point seems somewhat like earlier Portuguese types. However, without fullers and in this section, especially with the notable numbers and other possible proof or other stamps remind me of training type blades of later period. Clearly the training purpose with sharp point is contrary to that as these blades are typically rounded. The pommel appears of latter 18th c.
The quillon style, faux rompepuntas resemble some Portuguese examples in this period and classification.

The wire grip is unusual and of some concern, Is it cast and rusty or painted?

I look forward to comments toward my thoughts.

The grip is very rusty. I would like to clean the surface rust but I heard you should never touch hilt. What is your suggestion?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ASPaulding

The grip is very rusty. I would like to clean the surface rust but I heard you should never touch hilt. What is your suggestion?

I guess that what Jim wants to confirm is whether the wire is authentic and wrapped around the grip or just some kind of fantasy ... so to say !

Is it iron, brass or copper ?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ASPaulding

35 1/2" total length; 29" blade length.

Very short indeed; too short, we may say ?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I was rather awaiting more detail on this from Fernando, as he is by far the authority on things Portuguese here, and my feel is this is most likely a Portuguese example of a munitions grade, ersatz weapon...

Jim, definitely i am not such a connoisseur; once things are not explicit, i am completely lost .
To say this example does not fall (to me) within the regular range. I would not know how to explain the atypicaly (curve) tapering shape (certainly not due to over sharpening) and that array of digits.vBoth these and what appears to be a mark (?) deserve better pictures, for a possible better diagnosis attempt. Maybe ASPaulding can do that for us ?
The 'knob' with which the knuckle guard joins the pommel, may we call it atypical ?
I have never heard of a detail such as faux rompepuntas; could this just be an 'exuberant' rim ?

[ASPaulding]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, definitely i am not such a connoisseur; once things are not explicit, i am completely lost .
To say this example does not fall (to me) within the regular range. I would not know how to explain the atypicaly (curve) tapering shape (certainly not due to over sharpening) and that array of digits.vBoth these and what appears to be a mark (?) deserve better pictures, for a possible better diagnosis attempt. Maybe ASPaulding can do that for us ?
The 'knob' with which the knuckle guard joins the pommel, may we call it atypical ?
I have never heard of a detail such as faux rompepuntas; could this just be an 'exuberant' rim ?

Hopefully this may help.

[ASPaulding]

A few more of the marks.

[fernando]

Better view of the blade base and knuckle guard. Still the grip wrapping not clear.
Hopefuly some member able to ID those numbers.

[ASPaulding]

Originally Posted by fernando

Better view of the blade base and knuckle guard. Still the grip wrapping not clear.
Hopefuly some member able to ID those numbers.

A few more.

[fernando]

Looks real !


.

[werecow]

Not a connoisseur either, so maybe I'm way off, but given the active rust on the grip wire and missing turks heads knots or spacers, the blade being shorter than is common, the military markings on the blade, and the fact that the shoulders of the blade don't quite align with the guard, I'm guessing a composite with a smallsword or spadroon blade (a bit chunky for a smallsword maybe), cup hilt rapier guard and pommel, and recent replacement grip wire? Or maybe the grip just got wet recently and that's why the rust looks newer.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, definitely i am not such a connoisseur; once things are not explicit, i am completely lost .
To say this example does not fall (to me) within the regular range. I would not know how to explain the atypicaly (curve) tapering shape (certainly not due to over sharpening) and that array of digits.vBoth these and what appears to be a mark (?) deserve better pictures, for a possible better diagnosis attempt. Maybe ASPaulding can do that for us ?
The 'knob' with which the knuckle guard joins the pommel, may we call it atypical ?
I have never heard of a detail such as faux rompepuntas; could this just be an 'exuberant' rim ?

Fernando, you are always too modest, I know you too well over these many years, and know how many of these you have handled. I know you typically step aside to allow more free flowing observation from members to facilitate discussion.
Conversely I usually blast in, but pretty much expect much of my observation or theory to be corrected or elucidated, as actually I hope for. It is how I (we) learn .
For example, the more I look at this, I think my training blade idea is not right, but the numbering at the forte is certainly known on Solingen trade blades of 19th c. This is not something normally seen on any sort of rapier or other blade of the period intended for this rapier. The marking(s) or simply too defaced for any accurate assessment.
Such defacement has many causes/reasons mostly to obliterate the identification of a mark or sometimes some symbolic removal, the numbers are irrelevant in that regard as they are simply administrative or inventory.

The 'knob' or widening at end of knuckle guard is correct for rapiers, and the shape concurs with the quillon terminals, another plus.

While the pommel seems latter 18th c. I cannot say it might not be earlier.

On the 'rim'.....the exuberance was all mine , and the 'rompepuntas' (folded over lip on cup of this form) was open, not solid on period examples of 17th c.
Things began changing of course as this cuphilt style began becoming an arming type sword (which this is) in the 18th century, perhaps even earlier in less metropolitan settings, and cup element became solid cast. In many colonial types it is absent altogether.

It seems this blade has been as observed, shortened as this dramatic reduction to sharp point is unusual on these lenticular type blades IMO.

With the grip, obviously restoration work, but perhaps cast? with usual turks heads absent. Rust removal simply WD40, as always just stabilizing and cleaning minimally as required.

[ASPaulding]

Originally Posted by werecow

Not a connoisseur either, so maybe I'm way off, but given the active rust on the grip wire and missing turks heads knots or spacers, the blade being shorter than is common, the military markings on the blade, and the fact that the shoulders of the blade don't quite align with the guard, I'm guessing a composite with a smallsword or spadroon blade (a bit chunky for a smallsword maybe), cup hilt rapier guard and pommel, and recent replacement grip wire? Or maybe the grip just got wet recently and that's why the rust looks newer.

So we definitely think the blade is not a Rapier blade? I have heard of Transitional Rapiers that started to Evolve into a short sword.

[ASPaulding]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Fernando, you are always too modest, I know you too well over these many years, and know how many of these you have handled. I know you typically step aside to allow more free flowing observation from members to facilitate discussion.
Conversely I usually blast in, but pretty much expect much of my observation or theory to be corrected or elucidated, as actually I hope for. It is how I (we) learn .
For example, the more I look at this, I think my training blade idea is not right, but the numbering at the forte is certainly known on Solingen trade blades of 19th c. This is not something normally seen on any sort of rapier or other blade of the period intended for this rapier. The marking(s) or simply too defaced for any accurate assessment.
Such defacement has many causes/reasons mostly to obliterate the identification of a mark or sometimes some symbolic removal, the numbers are irrelevant in that regard as they are simply administrative or inventory.

The 'knob' or widening at end of knuckle guard is correct for rapiers, and the shape concurs with the quillon terminals, another plus.

While the pommel seems latter 18th c. I cannot say it might not be earlier.

On the 'rim'.....the exuberance was all mine , and the 'rompepuntas' (folded over lip on cup of this form) was open, not solid on period examples of 17th c.
Things began changing of course as this cuphilt style began becoming an arming type sword (which this is) in the 18th century, perhaps even earlier in less metropolitan settings, and cup element became solid cast. In many colonial types it is absent altogether.

It seems this blade has been as observed, shortened as this dramatic reduction to sharp point is unusual on these lenticular type blades IMO.

With the grip, this is far too perfect of course for actual wire and this seems some sort of cast sheet, as usual turks heads absent. Rust removal simply WD40, as always just stabilizing and cleaning minimally as required.

Wonderful!!!

[Jim McDougall]

Please note I did amend my suggestion that this grip was some sort of cast sheet, it still seems cast but in simulated wire.
The term transition toward rapiers is extremely vague, but seems to apply mostly to hilt styles with rapiers vs small swords and the elements of these.
The blades on rapiers had been traditionally thin thrusting blades often of notable length, 32" to 40" or even longer in some cases.

The small sword blade which evolved toward end of 18th century has become known as the 'colichemarde' which tried to combine the more substantial forte (elongated to over a third of the blade for parrying) with the narrow thin thrusting rapier blade. In effect this blade might be a kind of hybrid with the direct descent from wide to narrow point without the immediate change in blade width part way down the blade.

Optimistically speaking, while possible, the elliptical section of the blade and the numbering at the forte is concerning in regard to a hybrid of this sort from 18th c. The suggestion is offered only as an analogy regarding the comparison of blades in 18th c.
As an arming sword, blades of 29" are not unreasonably unusual and in colonial environment long blades were an encumbrance not especially like by the men.

For my feel on this, it still seems an ersatz weapon of munitions grade for colonial or rurally posted units either Spanish or Portuguese but hard to say when alterations were made, late 18th into 19th. ?

[ASPaulding]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Please note I did amend my suggestion that this grip was some sort of cast sheet, it still seems cast but in simulated wire.
The term transition toward rapiers is extremely vague, but seems to apply mostly to hilt styles with rapiers vs small swords and the elements of these.
The blades on rapiers had been traditionally thin thrusting blades often of notable length, 32" to 40" or even longer in some cases.

The small sword blade which evolved toward end of 18th century has become known as the 'colichemarde' which tried to combine the more substantial forte (elongated to over a third of the blade for parrying) with the narrow thin thrusting rapier blade. In effect this blade might be a kind of hybrid with the direct descent from wide to narrow point without the immediate change in blade width part way down the blade.

Optimistically speaking, while possible, the elliptical section of the blade and the numbering at the forte is concerning in regard to a hybrid of this sort from 18th c. The suggestion is offered only as an analogy regarding the comparison of blades in 18th c.
As an arming sword, blades of 29" are not unreasonably unusual and in colonial environment long blades were an encumbrance not especially like by the men.

For my feel on this, it still seems an ersatz weapon of munitions grade for colonial or rurally posted units either Spanish or Portuguese but hard to say when alterations were made, late 18th into 19th. ?

Thank you very much for all the information. I appreciate everybody's expertise in this matter. I am just in awe with the amount of knowledge everybody has. I love this forum and all of the members. I am a amateur when it comes to sword but my knowledge grows with each piece. Thank you again.

[ASPaulding]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Fernando, you are always too modest, I know you too well over these many years, and know how many of these you have handled. I know you typically step aside to allow more free flowing observation from members to facilitate discussion.
Conversely I usually blast in, but pretty much expect much of my observation or theory to be corrected or elucidated, as actually I hope for. It is how I (we) learn .
For example, the more I look at this, I think my training blade idea is not right, but the numbering at the forte is certainly known on Solingen trade blades of 19th c. This is not something normally seen on any sort of rapier or other blade of the period intended for this rapier. The marking(s) or simply too defaced for any accurate assessment.
Such defacement has many causes/reasons mostly to obliterate the identification of a mark or sometimes some symbolic removal, the numbers are irrelevant in that regard as they are simply administrative or inventory.

The 'knob' or widening at end of knuckle guard is correct for rapiers, and the shape concurs with the quillon terminals, another plus.

While the pommel seems latter 18th c. I cannot say it might not be earlier.

On the 'rim'.....the exuberance was all mine , and the 'rompepuntas' (folded over lip on cup of this form) was open, not solid on period examples of 17th c.
Things began changing of course as this cuphilt style began becoming an arming type sword (which this is) in the 18th century, perhaps even earlier in less metropolitan settings, and cup element became solid cast. In many colonial types it is absent altogether.

It seems this blade has been as observed, shortened as this dramatic reduction to sharp point is unusual on these lenticular type blades IMO.

With the grip, obviously restoration work, but perhaps cast? with usual turks heads absent. Rust removal simply WD40, as always just stabilizing and cleaning minimally as required.

I have cleaned it up a little. Hopefully I didn't devalue it to much. I planning on keeping it so it really doesn't matter. Just thought I would share the grip in question. Thank you'll again for everything.

[Jim McDougall]

well done! that is absolutely perfect! and I'm so glad you're keeping it.
The thing I have always loved about 'colonial' weapons is that they have a unique, rustic charm that makes one wonder of the adventurous tales they may hold. While it cannot be said for certain this is such a weapon.....by the same token, it cannot be discounted either.

Many of these weapons, or their components, had extremely long working lives and often ended up in situ in various settings for generations until finally being sold off, and ultimately sometimes finding a good home , like this!

This is my 'colonial', and has had some work as well. These were prevalent through New Spain in Caribbean, Gulf areas through 18th c. into early years of 19th.

[Interested Party]

Jim, is that an ivory handle? Thanks for showing a different type of rim to the cup. This helps clarify post #17.

I would love to add a colonial arming sword to my collection some day.

[ASPaulding]

Thank you for sharing. That is one beautiful sword. One day I hope to have a nice collection of diffrent arms around 18th century or older. To me that was the time swords and daggers alike really mattered. It just wasn't for show or for the very last resort. They were meant to be a piece of art as well as a key part to survival.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much guys!
I believe this is indeed ivory, and clearly has been on this for a very long time. This is of course atypical for hilts on these kinds of swords, but in colonial situations there were were few limitations to the personalizing of a weapon. Actually, the use of ivory and the remnants of black japanning strongly suggests possible maritime provenance on a vessel in the Spanish Main, an intriguing thought!

Swords were indeed a key weapon and despite the advent of firearms, these quickly became primary arms with issues with misfires, lack of ammunition, inability to reload in heat of battle and in melee etc.
The fact that there is a subtle kind of art that resides in often the simplest of edged weapon in the design and character of many of the elements is something not often seen by most people.
Not the fancy ceremonial weapons often in high end catalogs, but the 'real deal' that were often 'there' in historic moments often portrayed in famed art work.

[fernando]

I am still intrigued (above all) by those series of digits (inventory, serial, code numbers ?) and now with that 'mark' in both blade faces. Hardly maker's marks, as those usually (always) punch them in one of the sides.


.

[Jim McDougall]

It truly is a puzzle, and the only comparison I can think of is with some blades that were found on South American swords using 'blanks' from Solingen that had numeric sequences on the blade, at the forte in this manner. These were however with three numbers if I recall, but there were two swords with the same type blade and same number. This led me to believe these were either a contract lot or blade type (?) used administratively by the producer of the blades, and these seem to have been 19th c. but hard to say period.
I wish I could find the examples, I'll keep looking.

Whatever the case, Solingen was of course primary provider for blades and swords through 19th century into South American regions, where Portuguese colonial occupation had prevailed, thus many of these swords likely remained as well.

[M ELEY]

Very awesome sword! Glad you removed the rust, ASPaulding. I would also think a good possibility of being 'colonial/provincial', but await further comments. Jim, that ivory-gripped colonial cuphilt of yours is amazing! I know we've all seen mine, but this thread gives me an excuse to post my Caribbean example again!

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Capn! Im glad you added this fantastic example of yours, which really carries out the spectrum of character in these colonial type examples. What I really like on yours is the cross hatched ebony grip.