Shamshir, (number 2) translation and comments please

katana · 1st July 2011, 07:22 PM

Hi
Shamshir (number 2) , nice forged blade. bi fullered with, I believe, a Rhino horn hilt (hot pin test gave 'burning hair' smell).

I would appreciate it if the gold script could be translated. Does the bi-fullered blade indicate possible origins ?

All comments and help gratefully received, thank you

Kind Regards David

katana · 3rd July 2011, 03:34 PM

I thought that by posting three similar swords ...one may be forgotten. Unfortunately, this one has been missed. Strangely this is my favorite, a nice heavy and functional sword.

Are twin fullers unusual on a Shamshir ? The Rhino hilt (I'm fairly certain but not 100%) would indicate a more high end sword ?

Dom and Alnakkas,
sorry to rely on you again for a translation (I realise I've been 'pushing my luck' recently

) but if you could look at this sword I would appreciate it, thank you

I would be grateful for any help on this one..

Kind Regards David

A.alnakkas · 3rd July 2011, 03:52 PM

David, I have no pc at the moment. Trying to read inscription through Iphone is not easy. I bet Dom will translate it very soon!

katana · 3rd July 2011, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

David, I have no pc at the moment. Trying to read inscription through Iphone is not easy. I bet Dom will translate it very soon!

Hi Alnakkas,
thankyou for the reply .....my curiosity is making me impatient

....not a good thing but, I believe understandable

All the best
David

katana · 6th July 2011, 02:37 PM

I have a part of the script translated as " Mohammed is the messenger of god".....the rest of the script, I am reliably informed, is Persian...

do we have anyone whom can translate this script please.

Are the twin fullers an indication of origin or age ?

All help and comments gratefully received, thankyou

Regards David

A.alnakkas · 6th July 2011, 04:15 PM

Hello David,

I dont think any of the cartouches say "Mohammed is the prophet of God" the circular top cartouche is a makers name "amal Mohammed ****** ****" I cant read the last 2 words because Iphone zoom is not good enough. I havr much to reply to, including a discussion between me and Dom's wife (say hi to her, Dom, will get a reply soon enough. Also tell her "elkalam el akheer leek ya khalti") but I agree the bottom cartouches are persian but I think they are poems.

Am really thinking of studying turkish and persian now :-)

katana · 6th July 2011, 04:26 PM

Thank you Alnakkas,
a friend's wife in Morroco kindly tried to translate, it seems she may be mistaken

Two things my friend...one, hurry up and get a PC

and secondly the quicker you study Turkish and Persian, the better

Kind Regards David

Dom · 6th July 2011, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

including a discussion between me and Dom's wife (say hi to her, Dom, will get a reply soon enough. Also tell her "elkalam el akheer leek ya khalti") but I agree the bottom cartouches are Persian but I think they are poems.

Hé .. hé ... hé

not bad my Dear Brother ... we got hard time to translate the meaning of the Arabic cartouche
here what we conclude
in the circle cartouche
- AMAL MOHAMED either MADE BY MOHAMED
upper, it's just the transcription of sounds, without any idea of the meaning
- TAKALEK definitely, its not in Arabic
- *KHA*DAR definitely, its not in Arabic, and *, because the sound could be "DHA" , or "DA" ??

now, the cartouche n°1,
it's in Arabic, the problem has been the translation
as far as it's religious purpose, the "average" it's not acceptable
translation, must be sharply the meaning, and the spirit

YA KADI EL HAGAT either "YOU",(under meaning, God) WHO HELP THE ONES WHO ASK FOR(sentence incomplete)

in the n°2 it's possible to read (more or less) "YA KADI" with an other spelling, also, we guess that Arabic sentence has been translated in Farci
the matter still yet pending, our opinion it's not firm

it's a suggestion, no more

à +

Dom

katana · 6th July 2011, 10:17 PM

Dom,
thank you both (you and your wife) for the translation, very much appreciated.

Kind Regards David

tom hyle · 7th July 2011, 03:12 PM

the grip strikes me as a replacement.
It is clunky.
It may be poorly fit (it may have shrunk to leave a gap, but the abrupt depth of the slot the lagnet is in is also suspect)
But most tellingly it does not go into the handguard or even underneath the upper lagnet. These crossguards are usually also ferules, and this along with the upper lagnet serving as a clamp by going over the grip, eliminates the need for a rivet near the blade shoulders, which rivet's hole would be a weak point. This is where machetes break, for instance, and old N American butchers' cleavers and similar tools often have a similar feature whereby a ferule eliminates a rivet close to the juncture of blade and handle.
I had a kard with a poorly fitted black horn grip. My thought was water buffaloe.

katana · 10th July 2011, 02:07 AM

Hi Tom,
the slabs are higher than the langets.....the langets are very 'low' in comparision to the other shamshirs....will try and confirm /disprove the possibillity of the slabs being rhino.

Kind Regards David

katana · 12th July 2011, 03:13 PM

Manouchehr on SFI has kindly translated the 2 lower catouches, his interpretation is that cartouche 2 (middle) is "Ya Qathi al hajat (Oh, the fulfiller of wishes)" .The lower is "Ya Kafi al Muhemmat (Oh, the realizer of magnificent deeds)".

He agrees that the upper is not very clear but has also said like Dom that Amale (the work of) and Mohammed are more easily readable But, has suggested that there is seyf and possibly mesri there as well.

Regards David

ALEX · 12th July 2011, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Tom,
the slabs are higher than the langets.....the langets are very 'low' in comparision to the other shamshirs....will try and confirm /disprove the possibillity of the slabs being rhino.

Kind Regards David

Agree with Tom. The grips are later replacements. they're made of horn, not rhino.

A.alnakkas · 12th July 2011, 04:55 PM

I seen such rehilting before. One on a persian shamshir and 2 on european solingen blades but all were wood except for the persian, it was some time of horn.

katana · 13th July 2011, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Agree with Tom. The grips are later replacements. they're made of horn, not rhino.

Hi Tom and Alex,
you are correct....originally I thought I saw some translucence 'peering' through the grime on the slabs....indicating the 'possibility' of Rhino. I have cleaned them up ....definately horn....water buffalo a strong possibility.

Regards David

AJ1356 · 13th July 2011, 05:38 PM

I can not make the inscription closest to the hilt but the one farthest from the hilt reads عمل میرزا محمد یوسف meaning work of Mirza Mohammad Yosouf. I believe the Shamshir to be of persian (iranian/afghan) origin. Maybe a better picture of the other incription would help.

1st July 2011, 07:22 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Shamshir, (number 2) translation and comments please Hi Shamshir (number 2) , nice forged blade. bi fullered with, I believe, a Rhino horn hilt (hot pin test gave 'burning hair' smell). I would appreciate it if the gold script could be translated. Does the bi-fullered blade indicate possible origins ? All comments and help gratefully received, thank you Kind Regards David Attached Images

3rd July 2011, 03:34 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I thought that by posting three similar swords ...one may be forgotten. Unfortunately, this one has been missed. Strangely this is my favorite, a nice heavy and functional sword. Are twin fullers unusual on a Shamshir ? The Rhino hilt (I'm fairly certain but not 100%) would indicate a more high end sword ? Dom and Alnakkas, sorry to rely on you again for a translation (I realise I've been 'pushing my luck' recently ) but if you could look at this sword I would appreciate it, thank you I would be grateful for any help on this one.. Kind Regards David

3rd July 2011, 03:52 PM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	David, I have no pc at the moment. Trying to read inscription through Iphone is not easy. I bet Dom will translate it very soon!

6th July 2011, 02:37 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I have a part of the script translated as " Mohammed is the messenger of god".....the rest of the script, I am reliably informed, is Persian... do we have anyone whom can translate this script please. Are the twin fullers an indication of origin or age ? All help and comments gratefully received, thankyou Regards David

6th July 2011, 04:15 PM	#6
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hello David, I dont think any of the cartouches say "Mohammed is the prophet of God" the circular top cartouche is a makers name "amal Mohammed **** **" I cant read the last 2 words because Iphone zoom is not good enough. I havr much to reply to, including a discussion between me and Dom's wife (say hi to her, Dom, will get a reply soon enough. Also tell her "elkalam el akheer leek ya khalti") but I agree the bottom cartouches are persian but I think they are poems. Am really thinking of studying turkish and persian now :-)

6th July 2011, 04:26 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thank you Alnakkas, a friend's wife in Morroco kindly tried to translate, it seems she may be mistaken Two things my friend...one, hurry up and get a PC and secondly the quicker you study Turkish and Persian, the better Kind Regards David

6th July 2011, 10:17 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Dom, thank you both (you and your wife) for the translation, very much appreciated. Kind Regards David

7th July 2011, 03:12 PM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	the grip strikes me as a replacement. It is clunky. It may be poorly fit (it may have shrunk to leave a gap, but the abrupt depth of the slot the lagnet is in is also suspect) But most tellingly it does not go into the handguard or even underneath the upper lagnet. These crossguards are usually also ferules, and this along with the upper lagnet serving as a clamp by going over the grip, eliminates the need for a rivet near the blade shoulders, which rivet's hole would be a weak point. This is where machetes break, for instance, and old N American butchers' cleavers and similar tools often have a similar feature whereby a ferule eliminates a rivet close to the juncture of blade and handle. I had a kard with a poorly fitted black horn grip. My thought was water buffaloe.

10th July 2011, 02:07 AM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tom, the slabs are higher than the langets.....the langets are very 'low' in comparision to the other shamshirs....will try and confirm /disprove the possibillity of the slabs being rhino. Kind Regards David

12th July 2011, 03:13 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Manouchehr on SFI has kindly translated the 2 lower catouches, his interpretation is that cartouche 2 (middle) is "Ya Qathi al hajat (Oh, the fulfiller of wishes)" .The lower is "Ya Kafi al Muhemmat (Oh, the realizer of magnificent deeds)". He agrees that the upper is not very clear but has also said like Dom that Amale (the work of) and Mohammed are more easily readable But, has suggested that there is seyf and possibly mesri there as well. Regards David

12th July 2011, 04:55 PM	#14
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	I seen such rehilting before. One on a persian shamshir and 2 on european solingen blades but all were wood except for the persian, it was some time of horn.

13th July 2011, 05:38 PM	#16
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	I can not make the inscription closest to the hilt but the one farthest from the hilt reads عمل میرزا محمد یوسف meaning work of Mirza Mohammad Yosouf. I believe the Shamshir to be of persian (iranian/afghan) origin. Maybe a better picture of the other incription would help.