Navaja with questions

[Sajen]

Hello dear members,

I've bought my first navaja but my knowledge about this knives is very rudimentary and I hope that I get some answers to my questions from more knowledgeable members.
So far I know are this sort of navajas associated with France but this one is stamped clearly with Zaragoza which is in the North of Spain. The other inscription I can't read.
My questions: Is it a Spain navaja? How old is it? What is the scales material? Could it be celluloid?
The knife is opened 40,5 cm long, closed it is 22,3 cm, blade 19,5 cm and 4,5 mm thick at the base. Weight is 247 gram.

Thank you in advance for all comments!

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Have found by youtube a very similar one, stamped with Zaragoza at the blade and the handle/scales material seems to be very similar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vhDaJExEB4

[carlos]

The blade is engraved Jun Valero, in some spanish forums says that valero imports this types of navajas from Thiers, France, to the spanish market.

[Sajen]

Thank you Carlos,

Very valuable information! Any age guess?

Regards,
Detlef

[Chris Evans]

Detlef

As Carlos said, the current informed consensus is that they were made in France and distributed in Spain by Valero Jun. I am inclined to believe that this was indeed the case.

Cheers
Chris

[Rick]

Is there a particular reason that some of these French navajas do not have a positive lock when open?
Wouldn't inadvertent closing be a problem in a fight?

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by Rick

Is there a particular reason that some of these French navajas do not have a positive lock when open?
Wouldn't inadvertent closing be a problem in a fight?

In short, because folding knives with locks were banned and the French imports had to comply with this.

The long answer is somewhat more complex and perhaps you may look up the posts I made years ago on navajas, as this subject was discussed at some length time and again. Have a look at post #9 and #11 of this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...anual+baratero

Cheers
Chris

[Rick]

Thanks for jogging my memory with that thread, Chris.

[Sajen]

Thank you Chris!

So it's a "Spanish" navaja in French style. Or a French navaja worked for the Spanish market.

Age early 20th century? Handle scales from celluloid?

Thank you for sharing your knowledge!

Regards,
Detlef

[Helleri]

Time/place of creation I can't help with. Usage I can help with. You want a book called Manual Of The Baratero: The Art of Handling the Navaja, the Knife, and the Scissors of the Gypsies. It's the oldest and really the only exclusive old treatise on knife fighting, using knives of this type.

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Thank you Chris!

So it's a "Spanish" navaja in French style. Or a French navaja worked for the Spanish market.

Age early 20th century? Handle scales from celluloid?

Thank you for sharing your knowledge!

Regards,
Detlef

Hard to say how widely these knives were distributed, but I very much doubt if they were made exclusively for the Spanish market as their general shape and style was not "Spanish" at all. The French did produce knives similar in style to the ones that were made by Spanish cutlers at the time, but these are numerically in the minority.

This knife was made, according to Forton and other sources, late in the 19th century. The handle scales were usually bone.

I'll add that Forton's books are the definitive resource on these knives and no other extant work even remotely approaches their content. Unfortunately they remain untranslated.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by Helleri

Time/place of creation I can't help with. Usage I can help with. You want a book called Manual Of The Baratero: The Art of Handling the Navaja, the Knife, and the Scissors of the Gypsies. It's the oldest and really the only exclusive old treatise on knife fighting, using knives of this type.

The MdB was a literary hoax. See my review of the English translation: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...anual+baratero

Cheers
Chris

[Helleri]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

The MdB was a literary hoax. See my review of the English translation: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...anual+baratero

Cheers
Chris

Interesting read. Hadn't come across this notion before. Though I don't really see how any of that makes it a hoax. There are a lot of treatises that are basically just like this. Containing a lot of martial arts woo. Written for an intellectual audience. Some degree of plagiarism. Even some authors taking aside a few paragraphs to attack the works of other authors.

One is not well advised to read any old instructional with complete faith in it. You take what seems practical, applicable, and reasonable; You criticize and dismiss the rest.

An actual hoax would be if it were written say 10 or 20 years ago and is pretending to date from the period that it does; Not simply being below the standard one subjectively expects or questionable as to some of it's prescriptions.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hard to say how widely these knives were distributed, but I very much doubt if they were made exclusively for the Spanish market as their general shape and style was not "Spanish" at all. The French did produce knives similar in style to the ones that were made by Spanish cutlers at the time, but these are numerically in the minority.

This knife was made, according to Forton and other sources, late in the 19th century. The handle scales were usually bone.

I'll add that Forton's books are the definitive resource on these knives and no other extant work even remotely approaches their content. Unfortunately they remain untranslated.

Cheers
Chris

Thank you very much Chris!

Regards,
Detlef

[Chris Evans]

Detief,

Worth considering this superb book of Forton's.

It presents 237 high quality photographs of antique navajas, Spanish, and others. The captions are in Spanish but at the back of the book these are reproduced in English:http://www.libreriagaudi.com/navajas...colecci%C3%B3n

If you shop around, you may get it at a better price.

Cheers
Chris

[Sajen]

Thank you again Chris!

[cookyboy1]

Love your navaga ,I don't know much about these knives so if you and other members can help identify this one I have I would be very greatfull.