European hunting sword for comments

SwordLover79 · 3rd December 2023, 01:55 PM

images of a sword in my collection. I have often wondered about the significance of these...

fernando · 3rd December 2023, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordLover79

images of a sword in my collection. I have often wondered about the significance of these...

Can you please show us the whole sword ?

Jim McDougall · 3rd December 2023, 06:32 PM

Swordlover, there you have the exact scenario discussed, clearly this is of the French blade 'fourbusiers' (cutlers) and the various magic and military panoply based themes that have become collectively termed in many references as 'Caissagnard'. As earlier noted, he was one of such cutlers who was situated in Nantes, which seems to have been a hotbed of these type of blade motif's.

In a previous discussion we have discussed the esoteric 'rose' marking on the spine of blades at the forte which seems to be agreed to be a Solingen affectation on blades with similar decorative motif. As with many of these themes, it appears that much of the influence derived from Eastern Europe and the 'hussar' phenomenon which captivated most of Europe in the mid to late 18thc.
Along with the 'oriental' mystique of the light cavalry 'hussars' which of course included the 'pandour' units, was the attraction to oriental fashion and weapons (mostly Ottoman and the yatahans for example). Along with this came the mysterious 'magic' sigils and devices which seem to have been contrived from all manner of unusual sources.

Among these were characters of the alphabets of Glagolitic; Bosnian Cyrillic; Caballistic symbols; and numbers of others incuding alchemical and astrologic symbols, all variously assembled in coded interpretations.

These 'magic' symbols were seen to have talismanic properties (as with amulets from Passau known as Passau art, the famed running wolf one of them).

Many of these devices are almost wildly contrived, and seen as invocations to summon angels ( there was even an alphabet called Enochian) in keeping with remarkably superstitious beliefs of these times.

In looking at this, it is tempting to see the 'rose' symbols on the Solingen blades as part of this 'magical' motif phenomenon of mid to late 18th into early 19th c.
The Prince of Wales in late 1790s ordered a number of 'oriental' style blades (with yelman point) and talismanic motif for sabers for his officers from Solingen.

The cosmological basis in much of this symbolism derive from the sun and moon (which are depicted in an almost 'Tarot' style artistry) which are symbols of the Szekely, the ethnic sub group of Hungary from ancient times. The Hungarian nation of course has notable influence on blade decoration of these kinds in these times.

Jim McDougall · 3rd December 2023, 07:31 PM

In keeping with the 'Pandour' aspect of the style of markings on these blades, this example shows the type of saber, termed Hungarian (but of course Austro-Hungarian) used by the officers of these auxiliary forces 1740s.

In discussions several years ago, it was noted that the example in Wagner (1967, plate 35, produced by Mairschoffer I of Passau, anno 1747. Another possibility Melchior Steiner of Pottenstein in Austria anno 1749.
Here it is worthy of note that the actual 'pandour' units were effectively disbanded after the arrest of von Trenck prior to those dates. However this does not mean they immediately stood down.
The 1747 date seems coincidentally associated with the hubris laden biography of the notorious Baron von Trenck (it is believed he was the author).

SwordLover79 · 4th December 2023, 04:56 AM

Photos of the whole sword as requested. Lots of silver with hallmarks. I received this sword as a gift a long time ago...I always thought it might have belonged to a Gypsy or a "quack" magician!

Jim McDougall · 4th December 2023, 07:09 AM

Into the ether:

From Wagner (1967, plate 31) an Austrian hussar saber c. 1700, with scabbard mounts pierced with heart shaped cutouts,

"..the makers of these weapons were usually gypsies, particularly those responsible for the ornamentation and metal work. This is the reason why these weapons have certain national marks, such as for instance the HEART shaped perforations in the metal work underlaid with red cloth".

"Quack" magician? LOL!

SwordLover79 · 4th December 2023, 02:13 PM

I imagined a person who was a true character wearing this sword and telling stories by a campfire while selling potions. The scabbard is wrapped in bright green/blue shagreen with large silver mounts. The ivory hilt is adorned with large moons and stars - and of course the blade is covered with mystical symbols. Hard to imagine that it was used by a military person or even a hunter...

3rd December 2023, 01:55 PM	#1
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	images of a sword in my collection. I have often wondered about the significance of these... Attached Images

3rd December 2023, 06:32 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Swordlover, there you have the exact scenario discussed, clearly this is of the French blade 'fourbusiers' (cutlers) and the various magic and military panoply based themes that have become collectively termed in many references as 'Caissagnard'. As earlier noted, he was one of such cutlers who was situated in Nantes, which seems to have been a hotbed of these type of blade motif's. In a previous discussion we have discussed the esoteric 'rose' marking on the spine of blades at the forte which seems to be agreed to be a Solingen affectation on blades with similar decorative motif. As with many of these themes, it appears that much of the influence derived from Eastern Europe and the 'hussar' phenomenon which captivated most of Europe in the mid to late 18thc. Along with the 'oriental' mystique of the light cavalry 'hussars' which of course included the 'pandour' units, was the attraction to oriental fashion and weapons (mostly Ottoman and the yatahans for example). Along with this came the mysterious 'magic' sigils and devices which seem to have been contrived from all manner of unusual sources. Among these were characters of the alphabets of Glagolitic; Bosnian Cyrillic; Caballistic symbols; and numbers of others incuding alchemical and astrologic symbols, all variously assembled in coded interpretations. These 'magic' symbols were seen to have talismanic properties (as with amulets from Passau known as Passau art, the famed running wolf one of them). Many of these devices are almost wildly contrived, and seen as invocations to summon angels ( there was even an alphabet called Enochian) in keeping with remarkably superstitious beliefs of these times. In looking at this, it is tempting to see the 'rose' symbols on the Solingen blades as part of this 'magical' motif phenomenon of mid to late 18th into early 19th c. The Prince of Wales in late 1790s ordered a number of 'oriental' style blades (with yelman point) and talismanic motif for sabers for his officers from Solingen. The cosmological basis in much of this symbolism derive from the sun and moon (which are depicted in an almost 'Tarot' style artistry) which are symbols of the Szekely, the ethnic sub group of Hungary from ancient times. The Hungarian nation of course has notable influence on blade decoration of these kinds in these times. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 3rd December 2023 at 06:54 PM.

3rd December 2023, 07:31 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Pandour Officers saber c.1747 In keeping with the 'Pandour' aspect of the style of markings on these blades, this example shows the type of saber, termed Hungarian (but of course Austro-Hungarian) used by the officers of these auxiliary forces 1740s. In discussions several years ago, it was noted that the example in Wagner (1967, plate 35, produced by Mairschoffer I of Passau, anno 1747. Another possibility Melchior Steiner of Pottenstein in Austria anno 1749. Here it is worthy of note that the actual 'pandour' units were effectively disbanded after the arrest of von Trenck prior to those dates. However this does not mean they immediately stood down. The 1747 date seems coincidentally associated with the hubris laden biography of the notorious Baron von Trenck (it is believed he was the author). Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 4th December 2023 at 06:59 AM.

4th December 2023, 04:56 AM	#5
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	Photos of the whole sword as requested. Lots of silver with hallmarks. I received this sword as a gift a long time ago...I always thought it might have belonged to a Gypsy or a "quack" magician! Attached Images

4th December 2023, 02:13 PM	#7
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 56	I imagined a person who was a true character wearing this sword and telling stories by a campfire while selling potions. The scabbard is wrapped in bright green/blue shagreen with large silver mounts. The ivory hilt is adorned with large moons and stars - and of course the blade is covered with mystical symbols. Hard to imagine that it was used by a military person or even a hunter... Attached Images

4th December 2023, 07:09 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Into the ether: From Wagner (1967, plate 31) an Austrian hussar saber c. 1700, with scabbard mounts pierced with heart shaped cutouts, "..the makers of these weapons were usually gypsies, particularly those responsible for the ornamentation and metal work. This is the reason why these weapons have certain national marks, such as for instance the HEART shaped perforations in the metal work underlaid with red cloth". "Quack" magician? LOL!