Persian Jarids

Marcus · 5th December 2014, 03:05 PM

Artzi from Oriental Arms identifies these as Persian Jarids from the late 19th Century Qajar period. The simple spear has a solid shaft. The shaft of the trident is hollow. Both show traces of old silver decoration (Koftgari?). Any comments or suggestions of alternative attribution?

CharlesS · 5th December 2014, 05:20 PM

Typically I would never argue with Artzi over the attribution of anything, but to my eye these look quite Indian, late 19th to very early 20th century. I am just noting the apparently ceremonial styles, loss of what appears to be silver koftgari, and what appears to be "faux" damascus steel. Then there is a the trident which is typically seen with the Hindu god Shiva.

I suppose if we were to apply the term "Indo-Persian" that would be enough to satisfy me in a compromise with the original attribution!

Marcus · 6th December 2014, 04:22 AM

Charles,
Your comment is interesting because I was dining with friends from India when I hit the "buy it now" button on Artzi's site. My friend, Ashok mentioned the trident as an iconic Indian weapon. I showed him these and he did not think the trident looked like what he imagined. He later sent me the following text and attached image.

"Trishul (trident) Of Lord Shiva
The three-pronged trident known as the Trishul shown with Lord Shiva symbolizes His three fundamental powers, or shakti, of iccha, kriya, and jnana (will, action and knowledge). The trident also represents Lord Shiva’s power to destroy evil and ignorance."

Oriental-Arms · 6th December 2014, 07:43 AM

Two comments:

1) Silver koftgari decoration and twisted steel imitation on blades and hafts is very common also in Persian blades and axes, especially on late Qajar period. But equally I will not argue with Chuck. It could be Indian as well although my intuition say Persian

2) Trident spears are not only Indian. One can find it in many cultures from Africa to China. Just for example see below tridents from Persia, India and China (I also have somewhere a trident spear from Sudan but I need to locate it)

Marcus · 6th December 2014, 04:17 PM

I wonder if anyone can comment on the effectiveness of the sort of fleur de lis tridents (such as one of the jarids and the spear head Artzi shows) as weapons. Only the center prong will have much chance of penetration and the outside curves may even be limiting. I can imagine they might have some utility if the weapon is being manipulated but I have less of of a sense of how they would be useful on a spear, such as a jarid, which is intended to be thrown.

AJ1356 · 6th December 2014, 07:25 PM

I've been busy with school and been staying out of the boards, so I am just making a short comment. These examples are Persian, I don't seen anything Indian in them, I have not heard of a Jarid, so I can not say anything about that, I'd go with early Qajar for the period as well. It is sad that they were sandpapered they way they were.

estcrh · 6th December 2014, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

These examples are Persian, I don't seen anything Indian in them, I have not heard of a Jarid, so I can not say anything about that, I'd go with early Qajar for the period as well. It is sad that they were sandpapered they way they were.

Jarid is a term used for a variety of thrown weapons that range in size from a large dart to a small spear. At least some were kept in a quiver and used by mounted combatants. I have read that they were also used in military sports, they were thrown at targets while on horseback. Here is a link to some more examples.

http://www.pinterest.com/search/my_p...=jarid%7Ctyped

5th December 2014, 03:05 PM	#1
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Persian Jarids Artzi from Oriental Arms identifies these as Persian Jarids from the late 19th Century Qajar period. The simple spear has a solid shaft. The shaft of the trident is hollow. Both show traces of old silver decoration (Koftgari?). Any comments or suggestions of alternative attribution? Attached Images

6th December 2014, 04:22 AM	#3
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Trishul (trident) Of Lord Shiva Charles, Your comment is interesting because I was dining with friends from India when I hit the "buy it now" button on Artzi's site. My friend, Ashok mentioned the trident as an iconic Indian weapon. I showed him these and he did not think the trident looked like what he imagined. He later sent me the following text and attached image. "Trishul (trident) Of Lord Shiva The three-pronged trident known as the Trishul shown with Lord Shiva symbolizes His three fundamental powers, or shakti, of iccha, kriya, and jnana (will, action and knowledge). The trident also represents Lord Shiva’s power to destroy evil and ignorance." Attached Images Last edited by Marcus; 6th December 2014 at 04:23 AM. Reason: typo

6th December 2014, 07:43 AM	#4
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Two comments: 1) Silver koftgari decoration and twisted steel imitation on blades and hafts is very common also in Persian blades and axes, especially on late Qajar period. But equally I will not argue with Chuck. It could be Indian as well although my intuition say Persian 2) Trident spears are not only Indian. One can find it in many cultures from Africa to China. Just for example see below tridents from Persia, India and China (I also have somewhere a trident spear from Sudan but I need to locate it) Attached Images

6th December 2014, 04:17 PM	#5
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	fleur de lis tridents I wonder if anyone can comment on the effectiveness of the sort of fleur de lis tridents (such as one of the jarids and the spear head Artzi shows) as weapons. Only the center prong will have much chance of penetration and the outside curves may even be limiting. I can imagine they might have some utility if the weapon is being manipulated but I have less of of a sense of how they would be useful on a spear, such as a jarid, which is intended to be thrown.

5th December 2014, 05:20 PM	#2
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Typically I would never argue with Artzi over the attribution of anything, but to my eye these look quite Indian, late 19th to very early 20th century. I am just noting the apparently ceremonial styles, loss of what appears to be silver koftgari, and what appears to be "faux" damascus steel. Then there is a the trident which is typically seen with the Hindu god Shiva. I suppose if we were to apply the term "Indo-Persian" that would be enough to satisfy me in a compromise with the original attribution!

6th December 2014, 07:25 PM	#6
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	I've been busy with school and been staying out of the boards, so I am just making a short comment. These examples are Persian, I don't seen anything Indian in them, I have not heard of a Jarid, so I can not say anything about that, I'd go with early Qajar for the period as well. It is sad that they were sandpapered they way they were.