Tumbok Lada classification

VVV · 2nd November 2006, 05:27 PM

Hi all,

I have just uploaded my Tumbok Lada collection at Kampungnet.
The two Gayo versions are obvious but do you recognise where the other variations come from?

Michael

Detail pictures at http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Rick · 3rd November 2006, 12:54 AM

I wish someone had more information to offer on this weapon form; I have a very odd example which I'm not even positive is a Tumbak Lada.

VVV · 3rd November 2006, 09:19 AM

Rick,

I think your knife is made in the Palembang area, mid 20th C.
It resembles in style and material a knife I traded to CharlesS about 1 1/2 years ago (don't know if he still has it to show?).
I still regret that I let it go.

Michael

Lew · 3rd November 2006, 05:19 PM

What is the difference between tumbak lada and a sewar?

Lew

Bill M · 3rd November 2006, 09:52 PM

As I understand it a Tumok Lada has a distinctive squared off handle.

The name tumbok meaning "pepper" and "lada" meaning grinder. Here are some pictures of my little "Pepper Grinder."

Rick · 4th November 2006, 12:28 AM

I'm not so sure Bill; Lew's example doesn't have a squared off handle .

Bill M · 4th November 2006, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I'm not so sure Bill; Lew's example doesn't have a squared off handle .

Hi Rick,

I was talking about mine.

Bill

Rick · 4th November 2006, 02:04 AM

So Lew's example isn't a Tumbak Lada ?

If not; what is it ?

Is this a Tumbak Lada ?
The hilt is squared but the blade curves the wrong way .
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2259

Alam Shah · 4th November 2006, 02:37 AM

Lew,
Your small piece, is a Siraui. While your larger piece is a Tumbuk Lada.

Bill,
Nice Tumbuk Lada you have there. Have some similarity to mine.

VVV · 4th November 2006, 12:33 PM

I don't think it's possible to always clearly draw the line between what is a Tumbok Lada and what is a Sewar. Also these blades show up in several regions and the reference works sometimes contradicts each other.
In van Z the blades he show as examples of a Tumbok Lada all are clearly that. But some of the blades in van Z that are examples of Sewars are "inbetween".
When I tried to classify before posting my examples I looked at three features; the upper sheath decoration (shorter and rounded vs longer and rectangular), the hilt (compressed and chubby vs longer and slimmer) and the blade (thicker and straight vs slimmer and curved).
I have enclosed two examples of what I believe is clearly a Tumbok Lada and a Sewar on this.
But what happens when a knife is 2/3 correct according to the orthodox classification?
Like my third example that clearly looks like a Tumbok Lada when in the sheath. But then the blade is more like a Sewar?
Either you can call them hybrides or you could classify them on which one of the two styles it's closest?
The problem is that very few blades I have seen do fit the strict classification. So if a knife has all the Tumbok Lada characteristics except the blade I think it's a Tumbok Lada, like f.i. Shahrial's example.
It seems as if the Tumbok Lada vs Sewar is more a collector's classification dilemma than locally used terms based on the contradictions in the original reference works?
Like the Tenegre, Binangon, Sundang, Pinuti, Bolo discussions going on within this forum on the Visayan weapons.

drdavid · 8th November 2006, 07:14 AM

Very interesting thread, can someone explain when a Tumbok Lada becomes a Golok or is Golok a more generic term. Where would this piece fit?
Cheers
DrD

VVV · 8th November 2006, 04:54 PM

Drdavid,

A Golok is larger than a knife like Tumbok Lada (Pisau Tumbok Lada) or a Sewar.
How big is your knife?

I have now updated at Kampungnet with a couple of related Sumatran blades:

Sewar

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Sekin

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

and various Sumatran knives and daggers

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...bum.php&page=1

Michael

drdavid · 10th November 2006, 10:49 PM

Hi Michael, you show some beautiful pieces here, and the collection on Kampung net is outstanding.
The blade length on my piece is 30cms (12"), and the hilt is 12cms.
DrD

VVV · 12th November 2006, 08:29 PM

Hi Drdavid,

I think it's hard to say what your blade is?
It has the lenght of a small Golok but I would hesitate to call it that because of the blade's shape?
Goloks, as I understand it, are made primarily for cutting and yours looks like it's made primarily for thrusting.

Another example is this blade.
It's 54 cm overall with a blade of 40 cm that could be used both for cutting and thrusting. Feels primarily like a slashing blade.
I haven't found out yet what it is?
Maybe a Golok Rembau (see Hill and van Z)?

Michael

drdavid · 20th November 2006, 09:36 AM

Hi Michael
you are correct mine does not have the feel or look of a slashing weapon, but as a stabbing one it would be effective. Van Zonneveld's description of a Golok Rembau sounds pretty good, a bit bigger than a Tumbok Lada but similar shape. Thanks for your help.
cheers
David

CharlesS · 20th November 2006, 12:37 PM

Let me throw another term into the mix...'kirah'....I am not exactly sure how this differs from a sewar.

Any input Michael?

Lovely pieces, as usual, by the way!

Correction edit: Sorry, meant 'karih'.

VVV · 20th November 2006, 01:08 PM

Thanks Charles,

Are you sure that it's Kirah and not Karih?
What's the reference for this name?

Michael

Alam Shah · 20th November 2006, 01:58 PM

An example of a Karih from Sumatra. Note: shorter curled hilt.

A close-up of the blade.

A close-up of the hilt and upper-sheath, made of buffalo horn.

Rick · 20th November 2006, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

An example of a Karih from Sumatra. Note: shorter curled hilt.

A close-up of the blade.

Now this piece looks similar to the example showed in post #2.
What d'you think Alam Shah ?

VVV · 20th November 2006, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

An example of a Karih from Sumatra. Note: shorter curled hilt.

Shahrial,

Isn't that my Karih in your post?
Or do you have its twin?

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Michael

Alam Shah · 20th November 2006, 02:33 PM

Rick,
Your blade does have its similarities, especially the profile of the blade.
Blade-design suggests that it might be a Karih, after all.

Alam Shah · 20th November 2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Shahrial,
Isn't that my Karih in your post? Or do you have its twin?

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Michael

Yes! it is, after a closer look.

(Sorry I didn't know it was yours). Pictures are linked from Persada Pusaka auction gallery in KampungNet.
So you're the lucky owner of this fine Karih. Congratulation!

I didn't pay attention on your Karih during the auction, was concentrating on acquiring Lot 111.

VVV · 20th November 2006, 03:16 PM

Shahrial,

OK, that explains it.
Lot 111 is a very nice Keris!

Back to Rick's example, don't Karih have pamor on their blade?

Michael

Alam Shah · 22nd November 2006, 09:34 AM

Btw, Karih literally means mix or stir something, in Bahasa Indonesia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Back to Rick's example, don't Karih have pamor on their blade?

Not necessarily, but those that I've seen are similar to yours, either pamor adeg or pamor sanak. Rick's piece still puzzling to classify.

2nd November 2006, 05:27 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Tumbok Lada classification Hi all, I have just uploaded my Tumbok Lada collection at Kampungnet. The two Gayo versions are obvious but do you recognise where the other variations come from? Michael Detail pictures at http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php Attached Images

3rd November 2006, 05:19 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	What is the difference between tumbak lada and a sewar? Lew Attached Images

3rd November 2006, 09:52 PM	#5
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	As I understand it a Tumok Lada has a distinctive squared off handle. The name tumbok meaning "pepper" and "lada" meaning grinder. Here are some pictures of my little "Pepper Grinder." Attached Images

4th November 2006, 02:04 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	So Lew's example isn't a Tumbak Lada ? If not; what is it ? Is this a Tumbak Lada ? The hilt is squared but the blade curves the wrong way . http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2259 Last edited by Rick; 4th November 2006 at 02:31 AM.

4th November 2006, 02:37 AM	#9
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Lew, Your small piece, is a Siraui. While your larger piece is a Tumbuk Lada. Bill, Nice Tumbuk Lada you have there. Have some similarity to mine. Attached Images Last edited by Alam Shah; 4th November 2006 at 02:51 AM. Reason: added pics...

3rd November 2006, 12:54 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	I wish someone had more information to offer on this weapon form; I have a very odd example which I'm not even positive is a Tumbak Lada. Attached Images

3rd November 2006, 09:19 AM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Rick, I think your knife is made in the Palembang area, mid 20th C. It resembles in style and material a knife I traded to CharlesS about 1 1/2 years ago (don't know if he still has it to show?). I still regret that I let it go. Michael

4th November 2006, 12:28 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	I'm not so sure Bill; Lew's example doesn't have a squared off handle .

4th November 2006, 12:33 PM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I don't think it's possible to always clearly draw the line between what is a Tumbok Lada and what is a Sewar. Also these blades show up in several regions and the reference works sometimes contradicts each other. In van Z the blades he show as examples of a Tumbok Lada all are clearly that. But some of the blades in van Z that are examples of Sewars are "inbetween". When I tried to classify before posting my examples I looked at three features; the upper sheath decoration (shorter and rounded vs longer and rectangular), the hilt (compressed and chubby vs longer and slimmer) and the blade (thicker and straight vs slimmer and curved). I have enclosed two examples of what I believe is clearly a Tumbok Lada and a Sewar on this. But what happens when a knife is 2/3 correct according to the orthodox classification? Like my third example that clearly looks like a Tumbok Lada when in the sheath. But then the blade is more like a Sewar? Either you can call them hybrides or you could classify them on which one of the two styles it's closest? The problem is that very few blades I have seen do fit the strict classification. So if a knife has all the Tumbok Lada characteristics except the blade I think it's a Tumbok Lada, like f.i. Shahrial's example. It seems as if the Tumbok Lada vs Sewar is more a collector's classification dilemma than locally used terms based on the contradictions in the original reference works? Like the Tenegre, Binangon, Sundang, Pinuti, Bolo discussions going on within this forum on the Visayan weapons. Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 4th November 2006 at 12:51 PM.

8th November 2006, 07:14 AM	#11
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	Very interesting thread, can someone explain when a Tumbok Lada becomes a Golok or is Golok a more generic term. Where would this piece fit? Cheers DrD Attached Images

8th November 2006, 04:54 PM	#12
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Drdavid, A Golok is larger than a knife like Tumbok Lada (Pisau Tumbok Lada) or a Sewar. How big is your knife? I have now updated at Kampungnet with a couple of related Sumatran blades: Sewar http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php Sekin http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php and various Sumatran knives and daggers http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...bum.php&page=1 Michael Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 8th November 2006 at 05:07 PM. Reason: spelling

10th November 2006, 10:49 PM	#13
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	Hi Michael, you show some beautiful pieces here, and the collection on Kampung net is outstanding. The blade length on my piece is 30cms (12"), and the hilt is 12cms. DrD

12th November 2006, 08:29 PM	#14
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Drdavid, I think it's hard to say what your blade is? It has the lenght of a small Golok but I would hesitate to call it that because of the blade's shape? Goloks, as I understand it, are made primarily for cutting and yours looks like it's made primarily for thrusting. Another example is this blade. It's 54 cm overall with a blade of 40 cm that could be used both for cutting and thrusting. Feels primarily like a slashing blade. I haven't found out yet what it is? Maybe a Golok Rembau (see Hill and van Z)? Michael Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 12th November 2006 at 08:43 PM.

20th November 2006, 09:36 AM	#15
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	Hi Michael you are correct mine does not have the feel or look of a slashing weapon, but as a stabbing one it would be effective. Van Zonneveld's description of a Golok Rembau sounds pretty good, a bit bigger than a Tumbok Lada but similar shape. Thanks for your help. cheers David

20th November 2006, 12:37 PM	#16
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Let me throw another term into the mix...'kirah'....I am not exactly sure how this differs from a sewar. Any input Michael? Lovely pieces, as usual, by the way! Correction edit: Sorry, meant 'karih'. Last edited by CharlesS; 21st November 2006 at 12:33 PM.

20th November 2006, 01:08 PM	#17
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Charles, Are you sure that it's Kirah and not Karih? What's the reference for this name? Michael

20th November 2006, 01:58 PM	#18
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	An example of a Karih from Sumatra. Note: shorter curled hilt. A close-up of the blade. A close-up of the hilt and upper-sheath, made of buffalo horn. Last edited by Alam Shah; 20th November 2006 at 02:09 PM.

20th November 2006, 02:33 PM	#21
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Rick, Your blade does have its similarities, especially the profile of the blade. Blade-design suggests that it might be a Karih, after all.

20th November 2006, 03:16 PM	#23
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Shahrial, OK, that explains it. Lot 111 is a very nice Keris! Back to Rick's example, don't Karih have pamor on their blade? Michael