keris for comment

semar · 10th November 2009, 05:00 AM

hello this keris I bring with me this vakantie from indonesia ho can tel me more about this keris thank you guys

David · 10th November 2009, 04:21 PM

Well it's Palembang, Sumatra for starters. Well carved old hilt. I'm not sure when the gold foil was added. There doesn't seem to be much craft in it. The selut/pendokok doesn't look right for this keris.
Have you tried pushing the pendok up into place?

Sajen · 10th November 2009, 05:30 PM

Hello Semar,

David is correct, Palembang keris with nice hilt. The gold is original I think, this sort of gold work is like this, look my keris in this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10998

A thin gold sheet was put over the gandik part and the up from the ganja. I have a other one where all gold is missing.
You can't push up the pendok?

sajen

Moshah · 10th November 2009, 06:54 PM

Hi Detlef,

You mean, the gold is originally and purposely being applied overlay the ganja like that?

Or was it overlayed because the original kinatah gold are missing there? Was that is the real purpose of the overlaying?

Lew · 11th November 2009, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

The selut/pendokok doesn't look right for this keris.
Have you tried pushing the pendok up into place?

I agree the selut seems recent to me and does not quite match the quality of the rest of the keris. Still a nice piece IMO.

David · 11th November 2009, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

I agree the selut seems recent to me and does not quite match the quality of the rest of the keris. Still a nice piece IMO.

It's not the quality that is the problem for me. I might be mistaken, but i don't think this is the proper style for a Palembang keris. It looks Peninsula to me.

Sajen · 11th November 2009, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

Hi Detlef,

You mean, the gold is originally and purposely being applied overlay the ganja like that?

Or was it overlayed because the original kinatah gold are missing there? Was that is the real purpose of the overlaying?

Hi Moshah,

yes, I think that this is original. What I have seen until now is that the way of kinatah work on Sumatra is different than on Java or Bali. Look for example my blade in the link in up. Here a picture from the Sumatra blade where all gold is missing, you can see how the gold have been affixed before. And a second picture of an very old Madura blade with kinatah.

Detlef

Sorry, the first picture is the Madura blade and the second the Sumatra.

Moshah · 12th November 2009, 12:29 PM

You mean, the kinatah from Madura and Java is bold, while Sumatran style of kinatah is like a simple gold overlay (like a watercolour painting)?

BTW, nice kinatah on your Madura blades!

Sajen · 12th November 2009, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

You mean, the kinatah from Madura and Java is bold, while Sumatran style of kinatah is like a simple gold overlay (like a watercolour painting)?

BTW, nice kinatah on your Madura blades!

Thank you for the compliment of the Madura blade.
No, I mean that the kinatah from Sumatra isn't so strong attached like by Java or Bali blades. This is what I have seen by my both blades and some other blades. Would be interesting to read the knowlegde from other members.

Best,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 12th November 2009, 09:50 PM

What we are looking at here is a variation in technique, and a variation in quality, rather than a variation based on geographic origin.

Kinatah is where the individual elements of the motif have had gold applied to them. There are several ways that this can be done, some are better than others.

Where an overlay of gold has been applied to an entire section of metal, we are not looking at kinatah work.

The best kinatah work I have ever seen is on a Balinese royal keris; I have seen and I own several keris and tombak from South Sumatra and from Jawa that all have very good quality kinatah work.

It is a matter of the level of quality and the technique of ornamentation that has been used, rather than a matter of geographic origin.

semar · 14th November 2009, 07:59 AM

thank you al for your comment and the pendok I push I`m one his place

regards semar

semar · 14th November 2009, 08:09 AM

hello this i have teak from my last vakantie ho can tel me the name of this pamor

regards semar

Sajen · 14th November 2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semar

hello this i have teak from my last vakantie ho can tel me the name of this pamor

regards semar

I would call it Beras Wutah.

Regards,

Detlef

Moshah · 16th November 2009, 09:52 AM

Thanks Detlef and Alan for straighten this thing out.

As I've seen most kinatah on Java blades, it is hard to distinguish Sumatran kinatah works.

If it is all a matter of the quality of the work itself, then the art of kinatah would be more or less the same, either with Sumatran kerises or those of its Java counterpart.

Then the only difference are perhaps motives and also, of course, the quality.

Is gold overlaying is another tachnique that been applied as a filler for kinatah?

10th November 2009, 05:00 AM	#1
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	keris for comment hello this keris I bring with me this vakantie from indonesia ho can tel me more about this keris thank you guys Attached Images

14th November 2009, 08:09 AM	#12
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	keris sumatra hello this i have teak from my last vakantie ho can tel me the name of this pamor regards semar

10th November 2009, 04:21 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Well it's Palembang, Sumatra for starters. Well carved old hilt. I'm not sure when the gold foil was added. There doesn't seem to be much craft in it. The selut/pendokok doesn't look right for this keris. Have you tried pushing the pendok up into place?

10th November 2009, 05:30 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Semar, David is correct, Palembang keris with nice hilt. The gold is original I think, this sort of gold work is like this, look my keris in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10998 A thin gold sheet was put over the gandik part and the up from the ganja. I have a other one where all gold is missing. You can't push up the pendok? sajen

10th November 2009, 06:54 PM	#4
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Hi Detlef, You mean, the gold is originally and purposely being applied overlay the ganja like that? Or was it overlayed because the original kinatah gold are missing there? Was that is the real purpose of the overlaying?

12th November 2009, 12:29 PM	#8
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	You mean, the kinatah from Madura and Java is bold, while Sumatran style of kinatah is like a simple gold overlay (like a watercolour painting)? BTW, nice kinatah on your Madura blades!

12th November 2009, 09:50 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	What we are looking at here is a variation in technique, and a variation in quality, rather than a variation based on geographic origin. Kinatah is where the individual elements of the motif have had gold applied to them. There are several ways that this can be done, some are better than others. Where an overlay of gold has been applied to an entire section of metal, we are not looking at kinatah work. The best kinatah work I have ever seen is on a Balinese royal keris; I have seen and I own several keris and tombak from South Sumatra and from Jawa that all have very good quality kinatah work. It is a matter of the level of quality and the technique of ornamentation that has been used, rather than a matter of geographic origin.

14th November 2009, 07:59 AM	#11
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	thank you al for your comment and the pendok I push I`m one his place regards semar

16th November 2009, 09:52 AM	#14
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Thanks Detlef and Alan for straighten this thing out. As I've seen most kinatah on Java blades, it is hard to distinguish Sumatran kinatah works. If it is all a matter of the quality of the work itself, then the art of kinatah would be more or less the same, either with Sumatran kerises or those of its Java counterpart. Then the only difference are perhaps motives and also, of course, the quality. Is gold overlaying is another tachnique that been applied as a filler for kinatah?