My Great Grandfather's Sword

S.Al-Anizi · 6th October 2006, 07:58 PM

Hello,

After many attempts, and years of waiting, I finally got the chance to examine my g.grandfather's sword up close. Last Saturday, I found my grandfather in a 'good' mood

I asked him for it, to clean and restore it abit (its in a terrible condition), he accepted. This sword has been in possesion of my g.grandfather since his youth, as I was told. This sword, and a daghestani flintlock pistol is all that remains of him in the family, and both have been passed onto my grandfather, who has kept them, but did not care for them that much

The crossguard is broken, the knuckle chain was broken off, the blade is deeply rusted and pitted, probably due to bad storage in the humid basement.

The hilt and scabbard are low quality Syrian work. I was told earlier by my late father, that that sword had pure gold fittings, a fact confirmed by grandfather when I talked to him. He said he took the sword, with its old and damaged, but valuable and original gold fittings, to Damascus in the early 90's, where he had them replaced with these ones you see. Thin brasswork with a gold crust, and synthetic leather. The hilt is very unorthodox, it is of cast brass, fixed somehow to the tang, no adhesive, no rivets, I dont know its fixed, but it is solid. The hilt is composed of four parts, the crossguard, hooked-pommel, the handle, and the knuckle chain. Both the scabbard and hilt are of nejdi style, but with enlarged dimensions, something that is usual with contemporary syrian work. They just cant get things straight. The blade is according to my research, french, pattern 1822 LC, made in August 1878, at Chatterlaut. It is also pitted badly, and there some nicks, at the COP. I do not discard the idea that this sword has seen some real use, keeping into mind my g.grandfather's history, it likely has been used somehow. The edge has lost its sharpness, most probably due to the brass scabbard mouth, which rubs against the edge every time the blade is drawn or sheathed.

Since I got it, I have been working on the blade, hilt and scabbard. I have reattached the knuckle chain, polished the scabbard as much as I could, and cleaned the blade from the the active rust, and also tried to polish it. I know that this sword isnt worth much in monetary terms, I know that there are probably more than 1 million 1822 LC blades around in the world, but this sword has a special value to me personally, as an heirloom in our family for almost a century now.

Questions:

1. How could a blade made in 1878, moreso a french military issue, reach a nejdi bedouin from the early 1900's? Did these swords reach merchants?
2. What is the best way to fix the crossguard to the hilt? Would some light brass welding work? Wouldnt that damage and melt the other brass material?
3. Is there a way I could further remove the pitting and polish the blade, without taking too much material away (sanding), or damaging the temper (buffing)?
4. Does anyone know of a workshop in Syria, or better in Arabia, that can re-fit this blade?

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S.Al-Anizi · 6th October 2006, 07:59 PM

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Battara · 6th October 2006, 10:19 PM

Very nice piece. European blade and the mounts and grip look like gold over copper.

spiral · 6th October 2006, 10:46 PM

Thankyou for sharing such a piece.

Spiral

Lee · 6th October 2006, 11:27 PM

I think we often under estimate the efficiency of the trade networks from pre-automotive times. I have had an interest in the takoubas of the Saharan Tuareg, and 19th century and earlier European blades are occasionally seen in these swords, even those belonging to persons living well off into the desert. We obviously can never know; your family's blade could have been lost by a member of the French foreign legion and made its way to Arabia by the timeless caravans or perhaps it made its way to the area as military surplus by more conventional channels.

I imagine such European blades would have been valued at the time as well tempered, reliable steel. Has the blade been sharpened for a good cutting edge? So often, military sabers tend to be poorly sharpened. I have heard it told that the British were amazed how well their own sword blades could cut when they fell into local hands in India and were properly sharpened.

In observing the takouba, it is difficult to get a good view of the evolution of the form from the examples you find in-situ; one must often turn to examples in European museums of known collection date. Paradoxically, the 'oldest' takoubas I would encounter were often, at the same time, the very 'newest,' having been remounted within the last decade or so. It is pretty difficult to locate an example of old mountings on those swords still being carried. I suspect this is common when the sword remains culturally alive, as opposed to being only a relic. How exciting it must be to hold a sword you know to have been carried by an ancestor.

Turning to practical matters, you may wish to explore using an epoxy glue for fixing the grip to the guard; this avoids risking heat and can be reversed. I usually limit my treatment of blades to fine steel wool moistened with oil. Better to stop short than to over clean, in my opinion.

ariel · 6th October 2006, 11:53 PM

I agree completely. Fix it witn minimal damage or alterations. After all, the main value of this sword is sentimental: would you want to take an old picture of your ancestor and Photoshop his wrinkles out?
As to the blade: I have an Ethiopian Gourade with a Russian Zlatoust blade marked on the spine "August 1853". Go figure how it ended there..... Must have been quite a story.
Gorgeous sword and a great family relic! Take very good care of it and be proud every time your grandma allows you to play with it for a while

S.Al-Anizi · 7th October 2006, 01:22 PM

Thank you for the compliments battara, spiral, lee, and ariel.

Lee, European blades were, as you said, valued at that time, primarily because of their good steel and excellent temper. Even though they were primitive, bedouins knew good steel from bad steel, and I would think that the huge trade in blades between Europe and the region is a main factor in the decline of local blade manufacture, as there was no demand for them. Primarily because of the lack of proper heat treatment to them. The blade was properly sharpened, but the edge has been lost to time. The reason why blades were often refitted, be they Kaskara's, Saif's, Nimcha's, Takouba's, is because in these weapons were used within lawless, even primitive societies, which kept using swords and other edged weapons well into the 20th century, and most blades were heirloom items, passed down from father to son. That way, fittings get damaged from normal use with time, so they tend to get replaced.

Ariel, Lee, what type of epoxy do you suggest? Ive got all the kinds of epoxy i can find, but which type is most suitable?

6th October 2006, 07:58 PM	#1
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	My Great Grandfather's Sword Hello, After many attempts, and years of waiting, I finally got the chance to examine my g.grandfather's sword up close. Last Saturday, I found my grandfather in a 'good' mood I asked him for it, to clean and restore it abit (its in a terrible condition), he accepted. This sword has been in possesion of my g.grandfather since his youth, as I was told. This sword, and a daghestani flintlock pistol is all that remains of him in the family, and both have been passed onto my grandfather, who has kept them, but did not care for them that much The crossguard is broken, the knuckle chain was broken off, the blade is deeply rusted and pitted, probably due to bad storage in the humid basement. The hilt and scabbard are low quality Syrian work. I was told earlier by my late father, that that sword had pure gold fittings, a fact confirmed by grandfather when I talked to him. He said he took the sword, with its old and damaged, but valuable and original gold fittings, to Damascus in the early 90's, where he had them replaced with these ones you see. Thin brasswork with a gold crust, and synthetic leather. The hilt is very unorthodox, it is of cast brass, fixed somehow to the tang, no adhesive, no rivets, I dont know its fixed, but it is solid. The hilt is composed of four parts, the crossguard, hooked-pommel, the handle, and the knuckle chain. Both the scabbard and hilt are of nejdi style, but with enlarged dimensions, something that is usual with contemporary syrian work. They just cant get things straight. The blade is according to my research, french, pattern 1822 LC, made in August 1878, at Chatterlaut. It is also pitted badly, and there some nicks, at the COP. I do not discard the idea that this sword has seen some real use, keeping into mind my g.grandfather's history, it likely has been used somehow. The edge has lost its sharpness, most probably due to the brass scabbard mouth, which rubs against the edge every time the blade is drawn or sheathed. Since I got it, I have been working on the blade, hilt and scabbard. I have reattached the knuckle chain, polished the scabbard as much as I could, and cleaned the blade from the the active rust, and also tried to polish it. I know that this sword isnt worth much in monetary terms, I know that there are probably more than 1 million 1822 LC blades around in the world, but this sword has a special value to me personally, as an heirloom in our family for almost a century now. Questions: 1. How could a blade made in 1878, moreso a french military issue, reach a nejdi bedouin from the early 1900's? Did these swords reach merchants? 2. What is the best way to fix the crossguard to the hilt? Would some light brass welding work? Wouldnt that damage and melt the other brass material? 3. Is there a way I could further remove the pitting and polish the blade, without taking too much material away (sanding), or damaging the temper (buffing)? 4. Does anyone know of a workshop in Syria, or better in Arabia, that can re-fit this blade? 1. 2. 3. 4. 5.

6th October 2006, 07:59 PM	#2
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. Last edited by S.Al-Anizi; 6th October 2006 at 08:27 PM.

6th October 2006, 10:19 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Very nice piece. European blade and the mounts and grip look like gold over copper.

6th October 2006, 10:46 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thankyou for sharing such a piece. Spiral

6th October 2006, 11:27 PM	#5
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	I think we often under estimate the efficiency of the trade networks from pre-automotive times. I have had an interest in the takoubas of the Saharan Tuareg, and 19th century and earlier European blades are occasionally seen in these swords, even those belonging to persons living well off into the desert. We obviously can never know; your family's blade could have been lost by a member of the French foreign legion and made its way to Arabia by the timeless caravans or perhaps it made its way to the area as military surplus by more conventional channels. I imagine such European blades would have been valued at the time as well tempered, reliable steel. Has the blade been sharpened for a good cutting edge? So often, military sabers tend to be poorly sharpened. I have heard it told that the British were amazed how well their own sword blades could cut when they fell into local hands in India and were properly sharpened. In observing the takouba, it is difficult to get a good view of the evolution of the form from the examples you find in-situ; one must often turn to examples in European museums of known collection date. Paradoxically, the 'oldest' takoubas I would encounter were often, at the same time, the very 'newest,' having been remounted within the last decade or so. It is pretty difficult to locate an example of old mountings on those swords still being carried. I suspect this is common when the sword remains culturally alive, as opposed to being only a relic. How exciting it must be to hold a sword you know to have been carried by an ancestor. Turning to practical matters, you may wish to explore using an epoxy glue for fixing the grip to the guard; this avoids risking heat and can be reversed. I usually limit my treatment of blades to fine steel wool moistened with oil. Better to stop short than to over clean, in my opinion.

6th October 2006, 11:53 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I agree completely. Fix it witn minimal damage or alterations. After all, the main value of this sword is sentimental: would you want to take an old picture of your ancestor and Photoshop his wrinkles out? As to the blade: I have an Ethiopian Gourade with a Russian Zlatoust blade marked on the spine "August 1853". Go figure how it ended there..... Must have been quite a story. Gorgeous sword and a great family relic! Take very good care of it and be proud every time your grandma allows you to play with it for a while

7th October 2006, 01:22 PM	#7
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Thank you for the compliments battara, spiral, lee, and ariel. Lee, European blades were, as you said, valued at that time, primarily because of their good steel and excellent temper. Even though they were primitive, bedouins knew good steel from bad steel, and I would think that the huge trade in blades between Europe and the region is a main factor in the decline of local blade manufacture, as there was no demand for them. Primarily because of the lack of proper heat treatment to them. The blade was properly sharpened, but the edge has been lost to time. The reason why blades were often refitted, be they Kaskara's, Saif's, Nimcha's, Takouba's, is because in these weapons were used within lawless, even primitive societies, which kept using swords and other edged weapons well into the 20th century, and most blades were heirloom items, passed down from father to son. That way, fittings get damaged from normal use with time, so they tend to get replaced. Ariel, Lee, what type of epoxy do you suggest? Ive got all the kinds of epoxy i can find, but which type is most suitable?