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#1 |
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surabaya - Indonesia
Posts: 199
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well, the keris is not mine
it was offered to me but went above my budget, so I asked permission to the owner to post pictures here here as educational and discussion tool I personally never seen this dhapur in real life keris form ... considering the condition, the blade is somewhat old opinions are welcome enjoy !! Donny |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,732
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Hi Donny,
more as difficult to say something by the pictures regarding if it's an old or recent blade. What I can say that it isn't a masterwork of art, I see irregularities but maybe I can be cheated by my eyes. ![]() ![]() Regards, Detlef |
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#3 |
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,857
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Miraculous!
The greneng totally eroded : the singo barong still retaining a perfect profile, and most importantly, his manhood. A truly wonderful keris --- in the literal meaning of the word. |
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#4 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,100
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#5 | |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
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#6 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surabaya - Indonesia
Posts: 199
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for those who did not know, singo represent masculinity. It was believed that this kind of Keris will boost your manhood ... therefore the correct miniature lion should have an erect penis
Donny |
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#7 | |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surabaya - Indonesia
Posts: 199
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but as always, I can always try to ask him for more detailed pictures Donny |
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#8 |
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,857
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Actually, the singo is associated with the K'satriya caste.
Certainly, Jawa/Bali symbolism is multi symbolism, but sometimes we do come across misunderstandings and distortions. Not surprising really. |
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#9 |
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,903
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Hello,
Could it be that this blade is of very recent manufacture and was artificially aged?! ![]() |
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#10 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 525
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Artificially aged for what? In my opinion the value of such a corroded blade is lower than a smooth blade with good visible pamor. One simple way for artificially aging is to bury the blade in the ground and wait some weeks or months. But normally artifical aged blades are easy to recognisze. The very poorly made example in the picture is obviously artificially aged and outsourced in my basement. And in the first moment I was thinking, that the penis is an umbilical cord, which could be also pretty mystic. Roland |
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#11 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
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Aged to be sold as a very rare antique blade... ... or aged to mask poor workmanship... I guess... ![]() |
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#12 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
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Roland asks "Artificially aged for what?" In my experience current era blades receive artificial aging treatment for at least two reasons. Firstly AFAIK it is the current fashion in Jawa for even acknowledged new blades to receive an aging treatment. People seem to like the look. Personal i agree with you that when i have an acknowledged current era blade i would rather have one that is not eroded in any way, but i am a collector from outside the culture and i can't really argue with how the people who are the legitimate owners of keris culture choose to present and maintain their keris. Secondly a keris can be aged to deceive. You say "the value of such a corroded blade is lower than a smooth blade with good visible pamor", but that is only true if we are comparing keris that we accept as being equal in actual age. The rarity of certain dhapurs in truly antique blades can overcome condition in terms of value. I do not believe i have ever seen this particular dhapur in a confirmed antique blade so if we accept this one as being an actual antique the value is risen above a current era example that might be in perfect and un-eroded condition, no? ![]() |
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#13 | |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 525
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your words makes sense to me. Master Maiseys comment allows interpretations in different directions. I believe, collectors as you, Alan or Detlef easily see the inconsistency compared to old blades. For a beginner like me the blade is too corroded. I think your statement about the local preferences is very conclusive. Roland |
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#14 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,287
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I can testify to the artificial ageing of new blades.
It took my contact a few years to find me a new keris buda that hadn't been artificially aged. That is how prevalent this artificial ageing is... |
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#15 |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
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I am nearly sure that we see here a reworked old blade, the singa is added newly, that's the reason that the greneng is worn like this but the contours of the singa are so sharp and the penis still so large. Also the typical Sineba bulge seems not correct to my eyes, the form is not typical IMVHO. But frankly said I've handled only very few Sineba blades so it's just my impression.
Regards, Detlef |
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#16 | |
Keris forum moderator
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#17 | |
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that's the reason why I have asked in my first post to this thread for an unoiled and maybe fresh stained blade. ![]() Regards, Detlef |
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#18 |
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 371
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It is hard to determine much from the photos but on Donny's 3rd image (side on, greneng to the left) I wonder whether I might be seeing a weld line from above the Singo's head to a point just in front of the pesi
DrD |
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#19 |
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,857
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What is happening with Fido's foot?
Perhaps there is just the smallest possibility that this entire object has been built around a genuinely old gonjo? Look at the grain in the metal, and the surface texture : compare the gonjo with the wilah. It is always very difficult to appraise any keris from a photo, and where an educated seller has an intention to deceive, it is almost always impossible to know what one is looking at in an online image. But we can guess. |
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#20 |
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,740
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Well, Donny, you were lucky not to be able to pay enough for this "treasure"
![]() Very educative thread, thanks to Alan especially! |
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#21 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Surabaya - Indonesia
Posts: 199
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Wow, I have to admit that it almost fooled me
but yea, I got another singo barong, with minuscule penis, worn out due to repeated cleaning and this one got huge intact manhood ... and also considering Alan's opinion on how the blade and the gonjo are different, I can only say SH*T !! how lucky I am to know you all guys many thanks Donny |
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