Saintie

Kubur · 31st January 2021, 12:11 AM

Hi guys,

I found in Holstein a strange Indian weapon called Saintie.

I look at the forum and only Estcrh seems to be the proud owner of one of these.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=saintie

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=saintie

Do you have any other examples and for what they were used for?
Parrying weapon looks very strange to me...

Thanks
Kubur

Ian · 31st January 2021, 01:47 AM

Kubur,

Edgerton also has an example of a sainti. If you have a copy of his book, it is illustrated in Plate X, no. 557. Here is what he says about No. 557:

"PARRYING SHIELD; "Sainti;" consisting of a ringed shaft of steel, 22 inches in length, which is held in the middle; the grip is protected by a padded basket of steel, from the centre of which projects a small dagger. Vizianagram. (Pl. X., No. 557) (8452-'55.)
This weapon was introduced into Spain by the Arabs, an example of it is found in the Armeria Real de Madrid, dating from the 15th century."

The illustration that accompanies this text most closely resembles the picture you show with a straight bar, a D-guard and a small dagger protruding from the latter. The examples you show with blades at either end of the bar are, I understand, widely called haladie. The lance-like item you show, with a central D-guard, does not seem to fit either a sainti or a haladie, and may well have another name.

Ian.

kronckew · 31st January 2021, 07:25 AM

The spear one with knuckle guard reminds me of the Zulu Ik'lwa which is used with a large shield as a thrusting weapon, much like a Roman legionary's gladius. The knuckle guard and all steel construction would be an evolutionary bonus. Shaka and Julius would, I have little doubt, love it.

Peter Andeweg · 31st January 2021, 11:53 AM

Hi Kubur,
Saintie are very rare. I sold one example in 2020. Here is the link with some additional info.
https://antiquesbythesea.com/product...rying-saintie/

(If that is okay with admin)

Regards, Peter

Kubur · 31st January 2021, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Andeweg

Hi Kubur,
Saintie are very rare. I sold one example in 2020. Here is the link with some additional info.
https://antiquesbythesea.com/product...rying-saintie/

(If that is okay with admin)

Regards, Peter

Thanks Peter
Beautiful object, the blade is really like a katar, if not a katar...

Kubur · 31st January 2021, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Kubur,

Edgerton also has an example of a sainti. If you have a copy of his book, it is illustrated in Plate X, no. 557. Here is what he says about No. 557:

"PARRYING SHIELD; "Sainti;" consisting of a ringed shaft of steel, 22 inches in length, which is held in the middle; the grip is protected by a padded basket of steel, from the centre of which projects a small dagger. Vizianagram. (Pl. X., No. 557) (8452-'55.)
This weapon was introduced into Spain by the Arabs, an example of it is found in the Armeria Real de Madrid, dating from the 15th century."

The illustration that accompanies this text most closely resembles the picture you show with a straight bar, a D-guard and a small dagger protruding from the latter. The examples you show with blades at either end of the bar are, I understand, widely called haladie. The lance-like item you show, with a central D-guard, does not seem to fit either a sainti or a haladie, and may well have another name.

Ian.

Thanks Ian
I looked again at Holstein and I found 4 pages on the sainties. In fact as Estcrh said previously, it's not a weapon but a group of weapons, same function parrying but different shapes. The short spear is one of them, Holstein said that it was used with a shield. The madu seems to be related to this family...

Peter Andeweg · 31st January 2021, 07:54 PM

It has similarities to the Katar, but the Katar is much longer and mostly has a more pronounced armor piercing tip. Its is more leaning toward a South Indian spearhead.

The 'Madu' you mentioned is described in the same group of parrying weapons in Davinder Reddy's 'Arms & Armour of India, Nepal and Sri Lanka' p. 332-333
The 'Madu' is often attributed to the region of Rajasthan, North Indian region.

Jim McDougall · 1st February 2021, 04:00 AM

As Peter and Kubur have well noted, the so called 'saintie' is effectively in the scope of 'parrying weapons' which have some interesting history.

In Dr. S. Haider, "Islamic Arms and Armor of Muslim India" (Lahore, 1991, p.243):

The term 'saintie' seems to derive from a short throwing spear which was used by Rajputs and carried in pairs to be thrown as spears. In this case these were called BARCHHI and were about 2'7" with about 6" head.
The Mughal version of these were termed KHISHT NEZA (SAINTHI).
These do not have the hand loop or central guard etc. but otherwise look similar......the term is what seems intriguingly key.

These lances/spears were versions of slightly longer 'SANG' and another called SELARAH (Hindu term 'sel' =lance).

It seems these had a hand loop on them in the center, but appears to have become a solid fixture in the parrying weapon derivation. It would appear that this idea derived from such a weapon which appears to have entered Spain via Arabs where the edged ends with a central shield and dagger
(adarga, al daraqa =shield) . This central shield/weapon comes further from an early Chinese parrying weapon (attached from "Weapons", Diagram Group, 1980, p.73).

Norman McCormick · 1st February 2021, 03:06 PM

Hi,
The Saintie is a really nice and interesting item and not often seen. Here is my Madu also called Maru or Singauta and as far as I can gather used mainly by the Bhils of Central India. The Antelope horns are 25 inches end to end with an 8 inch shield topped by a 2 1/4 inch arrowhead shaped spike. My apologies for the poor pictures.
Regards,
Norman.

Kubur · 1st February 2021, 04:02 PM

Hi Guys,

So interesting thank you!

I add here the pictures from Holstein, the sainties and the Singhauta (madu).

Ian · 3rd February 2021, 08:03 AM

Gents,

Many of these double- and triple-bladed forms have been commonly referred to as haladie. Can you reconcile the difference in terminology you use here with that used in older sources (such as Edgerton), and elsewhere more recently. Even reputable antique sites still use the term haladie (see, for example, Oriental Arms).

One possibility may be that haladie refers to the Sudanese version of these multi-bladed knives with a central hilt. However, its widespread use for Indo-Persian weapons of the same form needs to be addressed.

Kubur · 3rd February 2021, 08:20 AM

Hi,

I will be careful with dealer's vocabulary, I prefer books.

Spear = BARCHHI , Barcha, SELARAH, sang, sangu

Parrying weapon = SAINTHI, saintie, haladie

Parrying weapon / shield = Singauta, Singhauta, Madu, Maru

Norman McCormick · 3rd February 2021, 06:25 PM

Hi,
This may be of some interest. http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/Kent/shiewea...l#anchor837168

Regards,
Norman.

Ian · 3rd February 2021, 10:10 PM

Kubur,

As I mentioned, several authorities speak of the haladie. Stone has this entry:

Quote:

HALADIE. A Rajput double dagger with two short, curved blades fastened to the opposite ends of a straight handle. (Egerton 390). A similar weapon is still used in Syria (Fig. 342)

It seems that this form may not be of the "parrying shield" class, but used differently as rather a fancy knife.

Kubur · 3rd February 2021, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Kubur,

As I mentioned, several authorities speak of the haladie. Stone has this entry: It seems that this form may not be of the "parrying shield" class, but used differently as rather a fancy knife.

Yes I agree and as I mentionned previously the saintie is not one weapon but a group of weapons including the short spear and the haladie, used with a shield

I think the madu is just the combination saintie + shield, all in one.

31st January 2021, 12:11 AM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Saintie Hi guys, I found in Holstein a strange Indian weapon called Saintie. I look at the forum and only Estcrh seems to be the proud owner of one of these. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=saintie http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=saintie Do you have any other examples and for what they were used for? Parrying weapon looks very strange to me... Thanks Kubur Attached Images

31st January 2021, 01:47 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Kubur, Edgerton also has an example of a sainti. If you have a copy of his book, it is illustrated in Plate X, no. 557. Here is what he says about No. 557: "PARRYING SHIELD; "Sainti;" consisting of a ringed shaft of steel, 22 inches in length, which is held in the middle; the grip is protected by a padded basket of steel, from the centre of which projects a small dagger. Vizianagram. (Pl. X., No. 557) (8452-'55.) This weapon was introduced into Spain by the Arabs, an example of it is found in the Armeria Real de Madrid, dating from the 15th century." The illustration that accompanies this text most closely resembles the picture you show with a straight bar, a D-guard and a small dagger protruding from the latter. The examples you show with blades at either end of the bar are, I understand, widely called haladie. The lance-like item you show, with a central D-guard, does not seem to fit either a sainti or a haladie, and may well have another name. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 31st January 2021 at 12:10 PM. Reason: Spelling

1st February 2021, 04:00 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	As Peter and Kubur have well noted, the so called 'saintie' is effectively in the scope of 'parrying weapons' which have some interesting history. In Dr. S. Haider, "Islamic Arms and Armor of Muslim India" (Lahore, 1991, p.243): The term 'saintie' seems to derive from a short throwing spear which was used by Rajputs and carried in pairs to be thrown as spears. In this case these were called BARCHHI and were about 2'7" with about 6" head. The Mughal version of these were termed KHISHT NEZA (SAINTHI). These do not have the hand loop or central guard etc. but otherwise look similar......the term is what seems intriguingly key. These lances/spears were versions of slightly longer 'SANG' and another called SELARAH (Hindu term 'sel' =lance). It seems these had a hand loop on them in the center, but appears to have become a solid fixture in the parrying weapon derivation. It would appear that this idea derived from such a weapon which appears to have entered Spain via Arabs where the edged ends with a central shield and dagger (adarga, al daraqa =shield) . This central shield/weapon comes further from an early Chinese parrying weapon (attached from "Weapons", Diagram Group, 1980, p.73). Attached Images

1st February 2021, 03:06 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, The Saintie is a really nice and interesting item and not often seen. Here is my Madu also called Maru or Singauta and as far as I can gather used mainly by the Bhils of Central India. The Antelope horns are 25 inches end to end with an 8 inch shield topped by a 2 1/4 inch arrowhead shaped spike. My apologies for the poor pictures. Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 1st February 2021 at 05:15 PM.

1st February 2021, 04:02 PM	#10
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Guys, So interesting thank you! I add here the pictures from Holstein, the sainties and the Singhauta (madu). Attached Images

31st January 2021, 07:25 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	The spear one with knuckle guard reminds me of the Zulu Ik'lwa which is used with a large shield as a thrusting weapon, much like a Roman legionary's gladius. The knuckle guard and all steel construction would be an evolutionary bonus. Shaka and Julius would, I have little doubt, love it.

31st January 2021, 11:53 AM	#4
Peter Andeweg Member Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Vlissingen, Netherlands Posts: 71	Hi Kubur, Saintie are very rare. I sold one example in 2020. Here is the link with some additional info. https://antiquesbythesea.com/product...rying-saintie/ (If that is okay with admin) Regards, Peter

31st January 2021, 07:54 PM	#7
Peter Andeweg Member Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Vlissingen, Netherlands Posts: 71	It has similarities to the Katar, but the Katar is much longer and mostly has a more pronounced armor piercing tip. Its is more leaning toward a South Indian spearhead. The 'Madu' you mentioned is described in the same group of parrying weapons in Davinder Reddy's 'Arms & Armour of India, Nepal and Sri Lanka' p. 332-333 The 'Madu' is often attributed to the region of Rajasthan, North Indian region.

3rd February 2021, 08:03 AM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Gents, Many of these double- and triple-bladed forms have been commonly referred to as haladie. Can you reconcile the difference in terminology you use here with that used in older sources (such as Edgerton), and elsewhere more recently. Even reputable antique sites still use the term haladie (see, for example, Oriental Arms). One possibility may be that haladie refers to the Sudanese version of these multi-bladed knives with a central hilt. However, its widespread use for Indo-Persian weapons of the same form needs to be addressed.

3rd February 2021, 08:20 AM	#12
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi, I will be careful with dealer's vocabulary, I prefer books. Spear = BARCHHI , Barcha, SELARAH, sang, sangu Parrying weapon = SAINTHI, saintie, haladie Parrying weapon / shield = Singauta, Singhauta, Madu, Maru

3rd February 2021, 06:25 PM	#13
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, This may be of some interest. http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/Kent/shiewea...l#anchor837168 Regards, Norman.