Interesting old Haladie dagger

not2sharp · 7th August 2006, 08:20 AM

This looks like a solid business-oriented eample of a rare 3 bladed Rajput dagger. The knife has an all steel construction, and what looks like a very deep patina. The main blades have armor pierceing reinforced points, and the short forward has an odd number of waves (11).

Unfortunately, there seem to be very few documented examples of these weapons. I am hesitant to put a date on this; although, my first impression is that it is quite old (perhaps 18-17th century). I would appreciate your comments on this item.

n2s

Jens Nordlunde · 7th August 2006, 02:17 PM

It is an interesting Haladie you have, and it is very true that you don’t often see them. It is also interesting to notice that both the big blades have a ricasso, as I don’t remember having seen that before, and the armour piercing reinforcement is unusual from the ones I have seen. As you don’t mention anything, I guess there are no inlays or marking on the blades – are there?

Here is a picture of Maru from a museums catalogue from Hyderabad, A. P. The catalogue is from 1975 and very badly printed, but I thought I would show the picture anyway. The text to the picture reads: ‘Maru, two-pronged blade on each side and handle in the middle. Quillons downward. Length 69 cm. Early 18th century. Inscription in gold ‘Badshah’’.
If it is called a Haladie or a Maru depends probably from where it comes. Mostly a Maru is of the same principle but made of two horns with iron tips.

not2sharp · 7th August 2006, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

It is also interesting to notice that both the big blades have a ricasso, as I don’t remember having seen that before, and the armour piercing reinforcement is unusual from the ones I have seen. As you don’t mention anything, I guess there are no inlays or marking on the blades – are there?

There are no visible markings on the piece. If there had been they have long been concealed under heavy patination. What I find most interesting is the blade alignment; it is not symetrical, the left blade point is four inches further out then the right blade point. The tang on the left blade is also about a 1/4-inch longer then the tang on the right blade. Fighting with this thing would have been a colorful art.

closeup: The right side Haladie blade.

n2s

Jens Nordlunde · 7th August 2006, 02:57 PM

Here is a better picture of a Haladie/Madu like the one from the museum in Hyderabad. Both blades have, on both sides, been decorated in silver and gold in koft gari, but only the one giving the year is intact.

Jens Nordlunde · 7th August 2006, 03:05 PM

Hi n2s, I just saw your mail. The reason why the two blades are not symetrical could be due to the way they used it. A nasty weapon in a close combat.

Here is a detail.

not2sharp · 9th August 2006, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

... The reason why the two blades are not symetrical could be due to the way they used it. A nasty weapon in a close combat.

I think of the Haladie as a left handed weapon, used in the manner of and, as an alternative to, the buckler or main gauche (although much more complicated to use then either).

Note: any thoughts on how these may have been carried or sheathed?

n2s

ps. The picture above was borrowed from this online article - I think we have found the crusader version of F-troop's Heck-are-we indians.

http://www.swordhistory.com/excerpts/crusaders.html

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2006, 05:13 PM

Hi n2s,

I too believe it was made for the left hand, and one trained to use such a dagger, armed with a tulwar in the right hand must have been a scary enemy.

I remember to have seen a Haladie with a scabbard for each blade – unfortunately I can’t remember where I saw it

.

BTW your link does not seem to work.

Jens

not2sharp · 9th August 2006, 09:47 PM

Quote:

I remember to have seen a Haladie with a scabbard for each blade – unfortunately I can’t remember where I saw it.

Was it this one?
http://www.therionarms.com/sold/com090.html

n2s

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2006, 10:34 PM

No it was not this one. The one I remember was different and had a silk cord between the different scabbards.

not2sharp · 10th August 2006, 12:11 AM

I found this picture of a huge one on the internet.

n2s

Valjhun · 11th August 2006, 04:34 PM

Jens, on the haladies you attached (especially on the first one) there are a very similar two pointed blades as on my "zulfikar"
Interesting. I'm still puzzled about that form of blade, serrated and double pointed. I do not think that this feature is an islamic form.

Jens Nordlunde · 11th August 2006, 05:06 PM

N2s, I think the haladie you show on the first picture should be turned, so the ‘upper’ blade could be used for a forward stab and the ‘lower’ blade for a backward stab. What do you think?
It is a very nice haladie you found on the net

.

Valjhun, it is true that the two haladies have split blades, but the one from the museum also has a round whole. I don’t know the reason for this, other than when it comes to the haladies a stab wound would not/could not be very deep, due to the split blade, but the cutting effect must have been nasty. I wonder if the serrated blades like these were not meant more for slashing than for stabbing, and the one n2s shows maybe more for stabbing – pure guessing.

not2sharp · 11th August 2006, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Valjhun, it is true that the two haladies have split blades, but the one from the museum also has a round whole. I don’t know the reason for this, other than when it comes to the haladies a stab wound would not/could not be very deep, due to the split blade, but the cutting effect must have been nasty. I wonder if the serrated blades like these were not meant more for slashing than for stabbing, and the one n2s shows maybe more for stabbing – pure guessing.

The split blade on Indian weapons has a religious significance. I do not reacall the details, but we have discussed them on this site in the past.

n2s

7th August 2006, 08:20 AM	#1
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	Interesting old Haladie dagger This looks like a solid business-oriented eample of a rare 3 bladed Rajput dagger. The knife has an all steel construction, and what looks like a very deep patina. The main blades have armor pierceing reinforced points, and the short forward has an odd number of waves (11). Unfortunately, there seem to be very few documented examples of these weapons. I am hesitant to put a date on this; although, my first impression is that it is quite old (perhaps 18-17th century). I would appreciate your comments on this item. n2s

7th August 2006, 02:17 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	It is an interesting Haladie you have, and it is very true that you don’t often see them. It is also interesting to notice that both the big blades have a ricasso, as I don’t remember having seen that before, and the armour piercing reinforcement is unusual from the ones I have seen. As you don’t mention anything, I guess there are no inlays or marking on the blades – are there? Here is a picture of Maru from a museums catalogue from Hyderabad, A. P. The catalogue is from 1975 and very badly printed, but I thought I would show the picture anyway. The text to the picture reads: ‘Maru, two-pronged blade on each side and handle in the middle. Quillons downward. Length 69 cm. Early 18th century. Inscription in gold ‘Badshah’’. If it is called a Haladie or a Maru depends probably from where it comes. Mostly a Maru is of the same principle but made of two horns with iron tips. Attached Images

7th August 2006, 02:57 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Here is a better picture of a Haladie/Madu like the one from the museum in Hyderabad. Both blades have, on both sides, been decorated in silver and gold in koft gari, but only the one giving the year is intact. Attached Images

7th August 2006, 03:05 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi n2s, I just saw your mail. The reason why the two blades are not symetrical could be due to the way they used it. A nasty weapon in a close combat. Here is a detail. Attached Images

9th August 2006, 05:13 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi n2s, I too believe it was made for the left hand, and one trained to use such a dagger, armed with a tulwar in the right hand must have been a scary enemy. I remember to have seen a Haladie with a scabbard for each blade – unfortunately I can’t remember where I saw it. BTW your link does not seem to work. Jens

9th August 2006, 10:34 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	No it was not this one. The one I remember was different and had a silk cord between the different scabbards.

10th August 2006, 12:11 AM	#10
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	I found this picture of a huge one on the internet. n2s

11th August 2006, 04:34 PM	#11
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Jens, on the haladies you attached (especially on the first one) there are a very similar two pointed blades as on my "zulfikar" Interesting. I'm still puzzled about that form of blade, serrated and double pointed. I do not think that this feature is an islamic form.

11th August 2006, 05:06 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	N2s, I think the haladie you show on the first picture should be turned, so the ‘upper’ blade could be used for a forward stab and the ‘lower’ blade for a backward stab. What do you think? It is a very nice haladie you found on the net. Valjhun, it is true that the two haladies have split blades, but the one from the museum also has a round whole. I don’t know the reason for this, other than when it comes to the haladies a stab wound would not/could not be very deep, due to the split blade, but the cutting effect must have been nasty. I wonder if the serrated blades like these were not meant more for slashing than for stabbing, and the one n2s shows maybe more for stabbing – pure guessing.