Dutch klewang vs. US Naval Cutlass?

KuKulzA28 · 18th June 2009, 03:39 PM

Hello. I am a beginner in Ethnographic weaponry, and even more of a novice in European types. It occurred to me that the Dutch klewang used against Aceh and in Indonesia was very similar to the cutlass used by the US Navy, and probably by other Western states. I am wondering - were they basically the same or were there subtle but important differences between the two? Thanks.

Emanuel · 18th June 2009, 04:23 PM

Hi there,

My understanding is that the Dutch Hembrug pattern came first, and was later taken on by Milsco in the US with very subtle variations. There has been a fair bit of discussion about these in the past, search the forum for the two makers.

I've been keeping my eye out for a Hembrug klewang for a while, I really like the design.

Emanuel

cornelistromp · 18th June 2009, 08:31 PM

Hi,
The Dutch had two types.
the left one is klewang no1 , made by A.coppel Solingen
the right one, klewang no2 is made at the Hembrug.

regards from Holland

kronckew · 18th June 2009, 09:32 PM

another solingen no. 1.

other side has a small (proofing?) crowned R mark figure. mine was supposedly captured from a german schnellboot (e-boat)

in the channel during ww2, and was apparently confiscated from a dutch supply by the deutsche kriegsmarine. the scabbard may not be the original type shown in the earlier post, possibly they got a bit mixed and matched in the armoury. i had a relative by marriage who was a royal navy officer and captained a british mtb boat at the time, so this one has some personal meaning. he lost a leg in combat with a schnellboot. the e-boat capt, apparently lost an arm, and after the war they managed to meet each other over a few beers and discussed the battle where they injured each other & parted friends...

see also the concurrent forum post here. i've also posted pics of the cold steel copy of the 'USN 1917 cutlass' which was the milsco one. i've seen an online copy of the original plans for the klewang somewhere, and milsco copied it almost exactly. i think a search here on 'klewang' may bring it up. there is also a rather nice book in dutch and/or english on the whole subject of the dutch klewang.

we have discussed these ones in great depth earlier. the history is fascinating and worldwide. the same model was apparently used by the dutch, germans, japanese and americans at approx. the same time. (the japanese shortened a bunch of captured ones, butchered the shell guard & issued them as an nco's sidearm.)

Henk · 18th June 2009, 10:39 PM

Search on "Hembrug" and start reading. I'm pretty sure most of your questions will be answered.
Enjoy!

KuKulzA28 · 18th June 2009, 11:10 PM

Thanks guys!
I'm not normally as interested in European arms, but the Dutch klewang is quite interesting to me. I will be doing some reading tonight!

Jim McDougall · 18th June 2009, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Hello. I am a beginner in Ethnographic weaponry, and even more of a novice in European types. It occurred to me that the Dutch klewang used against Aceh and in Indonesia was very similar to the cutlass used by the US Navy, and probably by other Western states. I am wondering - were they basically the same or were there subtle but important differences between the two? Thanks.

Excellent observations Kukulz, and it is fascinating to see the many instances where certain ethnographic weapons have been absorbed into military regulation forms, in this case the U.S. M1917 naval cutlass....another classic example is the kukri's used by the famed Gurkha troops in the British army.

broadaxe · 20th June 2009, 12:09 AM

Actualy, I think the influence can be regarded in long term (of centuries) and has been mutual. Sea-going tribes from Indonesia & the Malay peninsula have made use of short sword-like weapons and short spears (much like boarding pikes). Introduction to the marine edge weapons of the western sailors led its way towards the creation of a weapon such as the Parang Nabur, for example.
Another example, of the opposite way, can be seen in the former (1960's-1980's) British issue Golok machete for tropical area.

Hotspur · 2nd July 2009, 05:30 PM

The American 1917 has the blade similar to these but the 1917 had a solid basket. What Lynn Thompson of Cold Steel lists his as a 1917, is actually the Milsco version made later in the century. I was suprised by one recently that had a copper basket and shiny blade. According to another respondant, those plated American 1917 versions were truly done up that way for parade and such.

Cheers

Hotspur; I think Mike McWatters pages still have similar information

kronckew · 2nd July 2009, 06:20 PM

here's a ref. on the 1917 cutlass. LINKY

while officially declared obsolete in 1949, it apparently was still in use for ceremonial purposes at certain navy schools for long after. i understand some of those may have been plated and otherwise gussied up for display value. the US Navy Ceremonial Guard in Washington, DC (Anacostia Annex) still uses the 1860/61 model of modern mfg.

Hotspur · 2nd July 2009, 06:42 PM

Chuck!!

I like these.
http://www.navyandmarine.org/index.htm
http://www.history.navy.mil/index.html
http://www.cwsmma.org/TheCutlassCaveditsNiche.htm

The copper and nickle plated job that surfaced and a ringer of a Neumann 18th century piece that I couldn't pass up and have adopted.

Cheers

Hotspur; the repro at the bottom already comes with rust and a dark blade

kronckew · 2nd July 2009, 07:12 PM

nice one, hotspur.

for those whole like the shorter flavours of swords, the police in various nations carried hangers, like this one

which is a victorian british constabulary model. note the distinctive push button scabbard lock, which is fully functional on this one, they're normally found missing or broken - used on swords issued for use at Her Majesty's Prisons. sadly scabbard did not survive. chrome plated for parade, shagreen grip cover needs restoration. victorian british police hangers are normally found unsharpened (like this one) as the preferred use was to break bones rather than sever them. 24" blade for reference.

celtan · 2nd July 2009, 08:38 PM

Mine's purtier...

Very rare Ames M 1860 Officer's Cutlass.
Used until the beginning of WWII

18th June 2009, 03:39 PM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Dutch klewang vs. US Naval Cutlass? Hello. I am a beginner in Ethnographic weaponry, and even more of a novice in European types. It occurred to me that the Dutch klewang used against Aceh and in Indonesia was very similar to the cutlass used by the US Navy, and probably by other Western states. I am wondering - were they basically the same or were there subtle but important differences between the two? Thanks.

18th June 2009, 08:31 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Hi, The Dutch had two types. the left one is klewang no1 , made by A.coppel Solingen the right one, klewang no2 is made at the Hembrug. regards from Holland Attached Images

18th June 2009, 09:32 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	another solingen no. 1. other side has a small (proofing?) crowned R mark figure. mine was supposedly captured from a german schnellboot (e-boat) in the channel during ww2, and was apparently confiscated from a dutch supply by the deutsche kriegsmarine. the scabbard may not be the original type shown in the earlier post, possibly they got a bit mixed and matched in the armoury. i had a relative by marriage who was a royal navy officer and captained a british mtb boat at the time, so this one has some personal meaning. he lost a leg in combat with a schnellboot. the e-boat capt, apparently lost an arm, and after the war they managed to meet each other over a few beers and discussed the battle where they injured each other & parted friends... see also the concurrent forum post here. i've also posted pics of the cold steel copy of the 'USN 1917 cutlass' which was the milsco one. i've seen an online copy of the original plans for the klewang somewhere, and milsco copied it almost exactly. i think a search here on 'klewang' may bring it up. there is also a rather nice book in dutch and/or english on the whole subject of the dutch klewang. we have discussed these ones in great depth earlier. the history is fascinating and worldwide. the same model was apparently used by the dutch, germans, japanese and americans at approx. the same time. (the japanese shortened a bunch of captured ones, butchered the shell guard & issued them as an nco's sidearm.) Last edited by kronckew; 18th June 2009 at 10:07 PM.

20th June 2009, 12:09 AM	#8
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Actualy, I think the influence can be regarded in long term (of centuries) and has been mutual. Sea-going tribes from Indonesia & the Malay peninsula have made use of short sword-like weapons and short spears (much like boarding pikes). Introduction to the marine edge weapons of the western sailors led its way towards the creation of a weapon such as the Parang Nabur, for example. Another example, of the opposite way, can be seen in the former (1960's-1980's) British issue Golok machete for tropical area. Attached Images

2nd July 2009, 06:20 PM	#10
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	here's a ref. on the 1917 cutlass. LINKY while officially declared obsolete in 1949, it apparently was still in use for ceremonial purposes at certain navy schools for long after. i understand some of those may have been plated and otherwise gussied up for display value. the US Navy Ceremonial Guard in Washington, DC (Anacostia Annex) still uses the 1860/61 model of modern mfg. Last edited by kronckew; 2nd July 2009 at 06:47 PM.

18th June 2009, 04:23 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi there, My understanding is that the Dutch Hembrug pattern came first, and was later taken on by Milsco in the US with very subtle variations. There has been a fair bit of discussion about these in the past, search the forum for the two makers. I've been keeping my eye out for a Hembrug klewang for a while, I really like the design. Emanuel

18th June 2009, 10:39 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Search on "Hembrug" and start reading. I'm pretty sure most of your questions will be answered. Enjoy!

18th June 2009, 11:10 PM	#6
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Thanks guys! I'm not normally as interested in European arms, but the Dutch klewang is quite interesting to me. I will be doing some reading tonight!

2nd July 2009, 05:30 PM	#9
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	The American 1917 has the blade similar to these but the 1917 had a solid basket. What Lynn Thompson of Cold Steel lists his as a 1917, is actually the Milsco version made later in the century. I was suprised by one recently that had a copper basket and shiny blade. According to another respondant, those plated American 1917 versions were truly done up that way for parade and such. Cheers Hotspur; I think Mike McWatters pages still have similar information

2nd July 2009, 06:42 PM	#11
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	Chuck!! I like these. http://www.navyandmarine.org/index.htm http://www.history.navy.mil/index.html http://www.cwsmma.org/TheCutlassCaveditsNiche.htm The copper and nickle plated job that surfaced and a ringer of a Neumann 18th century piece that I couldn't pass up and have adopted. Cheers Hotspur; the repro at the bottom already comes with rust and a dark blade Attached Images

2nd July 2009, 07:12 PM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	nice one, hotspur. for those whole like the shorter flavours of swords, the police in various nations carried hangers, like this one which is a victorian british constabulary model. note the distinctive push button scabbard lock, which is fully functional on this one, they're normally found missing or broken - used on swords issued for use at Her Majesty's Prisons. sadly scabbard did not survive. chrome plated for parade, shagreen grip cover needs restoration. victorian british police hangers are normally found unsharpened (like this one) as the preferred use was to break bones rather than sever them. 24" blade for reference. Last edited by kronckew; 2nd July 2009 at 07:32 PM.

2nd July 2009, 08:38 PM	#13
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Mine's purtier... Very rare Ames M 1860 Officer's Cutlass. Used until the beginning of WWII Last edited by celtan; 3rd July 2009 at 04:11 AM.