Indian Torador Barrel Investigation

rickystl · 9th August 2015, 11:27 PM

Hello all.
Here is a Torador I plan on making into a safe shooting gun. It is in very good overall condition, with the exception of a break in the upper end of the stock's forearm. But nothing is missing, so it will be an easy fix.
So the real issue is the barrel. My preliminay investigation shows me that the inside of the breech area is a larger diameter than the bore size (.59 caliber/15mm). It seems the breech end of the barrel was closed using a plug and forge welding. That method of sealing the breech must have worked since the guns were used for some 300+ years virtually unchanged. But I simply don't trust shooting a muzzle loading gun without a threaded breech plug. So I will need to drill out the breech end starting with a small drill bit, and slowly working my way up with larger bits enlarging the hole till it meets with the walls of the barrel. This will also answer a question I've had for many years as to how the inside of the breech of these barrels was designed. There is much speculation. But we will finally solve this mystery in due course.
Here are pics of the dis-assembled gun. It was easy enough. Just remove the barrel bands and the breech retaining pin.
Rick.

rickystl · 9th August 2015, 11:29 PM

SOME MORE PICS..........

rickystl · 9th August 2015, 11:32 PM

HERE ARE PICS OF THE BREECH END WITH THE DIRT CLEANED OFF.
It looks like a small plug inside a larger one??? Now I really have no idea till I open up the breech. LOL

Rick.

Pukka Bundook · 10th August 2015, 03:07 AM

I can imagine you peering in there like Carter into King Tut's tomb!

Spiders, smurfs, who knows!?
Very hard to generalize on these, as some were made with smaller powder chambers, and some larger powder chambers.
I had an old Enfield musket, and it's breech was larger than bore, but that was just Very bad pitting!

Look forward to seeing what you find.

Richard.

David R · 11th August 2015, 10:34 PM

Very much looking forward to further developments here.

rickystl · 15th August 2015, 08:06 PM

Hi Pukka.
LOL!!! Yes, I'm going to be sooooo curious.

Hi David.
There are other muzzle loading gun shooters and collectors that are also curious to see the pics. I want to try to understand their theory of ballistics by analyzing the design of the barrel/breech interior.
In the YouTube video "Mughal Matchlock" they seem to think the lead ball was seated just FORWARD of the powder chamber instead of being seated ON TOP of the powder. When I run a metal rod down the barrel, and press to one side, there seems to be a ridge just before the swell at the breech begins. Very strange. Not having the lead ball seated directly on top of the powder would at minimum reduce velocity and could also be considered a bore obstruction. Hmmmm.
Rick.

Pukka Bundook · 16th August 2015, 05:02 AM

Rick,

If in India they received the first matchlocks when meal type powder was in use, then a stop of some kind between powder and projectile was important, as mealed powder won't ignite if compressed. (Meal powder was finely ground sulphur charcoal and saltpetre and would settle out in transport so had to be re-mixed.)
It would appear that in India, this powder chamber in one form or another became standard, even when it wasn't required anymore when corned powder came into use.
There shouldn't be a gap really between powder and ball, so they likely had it measured pretty close so as to not create problems. (For instance, just enough powder to fill the chamber, and a tad more, so the ball sat on it, (or the wad) without unduly compressing it.

Richard.

rickystl · 16th August 2015, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Rick,

If in India they received the first matchlocks when meal type powder was in use, then a stop of some kind between powder and projectile was important, as mealed powder won't ignite if compressed. (Meal powder was finely ground sulphur charcoal and saltpetre and would settle out in transport so had to be re-mixed.)
It would appear that in India, this powder chamber in one form or another became standard, even when it wasn't required anymore when corned powder came into use.
There shouldn't be a gap really between powder and ball, so they likely had it measured pretty close so as to not create problems. (For instance, just enough powder to fill the chamber, and a tad more, so the ball sat on it, (or the wad) without unduly compressing it.

Richard.

Hi Richard.
Your mealed powder analysis makes perfect sense. I have actually seen some of this powder. It's almost the consistency of cake flour. But I did not know of it's ignition requirements. Thank you very much. I learn something new on this Forum all the time. The theory for the powder chamber design becomes more clear.
Hopefully, between the gunsmith and myself, we will be able to figure out a way to safely shoot the barrel without the use of a new steel liner. Which in this case, would be expensive to make with a large taper for the breech section, but the bore being the same diameter the whole length.
Which brings up another question LOL. I wonder how they kept the breech area clean after firing? Running a cleaning patch down the bore from the muzzle end would likely loose the patch in the breech area. Would it not?
Rick.

Pukka Bundook · 16th August 2015, 07:27 PM

Rick,

For cleaning, water and likely a wool mop attached to a rod would work. Wool would compress to enter the chamber, and fluff out again to fill it.
When dry, an oiled wool mop would work to prevent rust.

As you say, patches would be asking for trouble!

rickystl · 16th August 2015, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Rick,

For cleaning, water and likely a wool mop attached to a rod would work. Wool would compress to enter the chamber, and fluff out again to fill it.
When dry, an oiled wool mop would work to prevent rust.

As you say, patches would be asking for trouble!

Hi Richard.
Yes, similar to a shotgun cleaning mop. Assuming the mop would expand enough. I'll test hat out once the breech is open.
Rick.

Pukka Bundook · 16th August 2015, 07:56 PM

You can make your own wool mop with raw wool and as big and fuzzy as needs be, Rick.

rickystl · 16th August 2015, 08:01 PM

Yes, that's a good idea. Thanks.

rickystl · 18th October 2015, 06:23 PM

BUMP!!
Hello all. I received the barrel back from the gunsmith with the breech plug drilled out. I have a few photos, so I'll start a new Thread as Part-2. The findings are most interesting.
Rick.

9th August 2015, 11:27 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Indian Torador Barrel Investigation Hello all. Here is a Torador I plan on making into a safe shooting gun. It is in very good overall condition, with the exception of a break in the upper end of the stock's forearm. But nothing is missing, so it will be an easy fix. So the real issue is the barrel. My preliminay investigation shows me that the inside of the breech area is a larger diameter than the bore size (.59 caliber/15mm). It seems the breech end of the barrel was closed using a plug and forge welding. That method of sealing the breech must have worked since the guns were used for some 300+ years virtually unchanged. But I simply don't trust shooting a muzzle loading gun without a threaded breech plug. So I will need to drill out the breech end starting with a small drill bit, and slowly working my way up with larger bits enlarging the hole till it meets with the walls of the barrel. This will also answer a question I've had for many years as to how the inside of the breech of these barrels was designed. There is much speculation. But we will finally solve this mystery in due course. Here are pics of the dis-assembled gun. It was easy enough. Just remove the barrel bands and the breech retaining pin. Rick. Attached Images

9th August 2015, 11:29 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	SOME MORE PICS.......... Attached Images

9th August 2015, 11:32 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	HERE ARE PICS OF THE BREECH END WITH THE DIRT CLEANED OFF. It looks like a small plug inside a larger one??? Now I really have no idea till I open up the breech. LOL Rick. Attached Images

10th August 2015, 03:07 AM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	I can imagine you peering in there like Carter into King Tut's tomb! Spiders, smurfs, who knows!? Very hard to generalize on these, as some were made with smaller powder chambers, and some larger powder chambers. I had an old Enfield musket, and it's breech was larger than bore, but that was just Very bad pitting! Look forward to seeing what you find. Richard.

11th August 2015, 10:34 PM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Very much looking forward to further developments here.

15th August 2015, 08:06 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Pukka. LOL!!! Yes, I'm going to be sooooo curious. Hi David. There are other muzzle loading gun shooters and collectors that are also curious to see the pics. I want to try to understand their theory of ballistics by analyzing the design of the barrel/breech interior. In the YouTube video "Mughal Matchlock" they seem to think the lead ball was seated just FORWARD of the powder chamber instead of being seated ON TOP of the powder. When I run a metal rod down the barrel, and press to one side, there seems to be a ridge just before the swell at the breech begins. Very strange. Not having the lead ball seated directly on top of the powder would at minimum reduce velocity and could also be considered a bore obstruction. Hmmmm. Rick.

16th August 2015, 05:02 AM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Rick, If in India they received the first matchlocks when meal type powder was in use, then a stop of some kind between powder and projectile was important, as mealed powder won't ignite if compressed. (Meal powder was finely ground sulphur charcoal and saltpetre and would settle out in transport so had to be re-mixed.) It would appear that in India, this powder chamber in one form or another became standard, even when it wasn't required anymore when corned powder came into use. There shouldn't be a gap really between powder and ball, so they likely had it measured pretty close so as to not create problems. (For instance, just enough powder to fill the chamber, and a tad more, so the ball sat on it, (or the wad) without unduly compressing it. Richard.

16th August 2015, 07:27 PM	#9
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Rick, For cleaning, water and likely a wool mop attached to a rod would work. Wool would compress to enter the chamber, and fluff out again to fill it. When dry, an oiled wool mop would work to prevent rust. As you say, patches would be asking for trouble!

16th August 2015, 07:56 PM	#11
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	You can make your own wool mop with raw wool and as big and fuzzy as needs be, Rick.

16th August 2015, 08:01 PM	#12
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Yes, that's a good idea. Thanks.

18th October 2015, 06:23 PM	#13
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	BUMP!! Hello all. I received the barrel back from the gunsmith with the breech plug drilled out. I have a few photos, so I'll start a new Thread as Part-2. The findings are most interesting. Rick.